7.62cm PaK 36(r)

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi,
At the begining of this topic it is said that the german modified the gun to use it as a AT gun. Does anyone knows what the modification(s) consist(s) in ?

Thanks

Hi Eax-E

I see no one has replied to your question. The conversion consisted of the chamber being rebored to take the Pak 40 ammunition, the Soviet sights replaced with standard German Pak sights, muzzle brake fitted and the elevating handwheel being moved from the right to the left hand side of the gun. The last modification was the most important in converting it from a field gun to an anti tank gun as it moved all the controls to the same side and were operated by one man, the gun layer.

[Eax-E]

Hello Clive,

Many thanks. Indeed it's important to have all controls at disposal of the gun layer.

[J-Feder-504]

Hi Eax-E

The conversion consisted of the chamber being rebored to take the Pak 40 ammunition, [/quote]

Hi !
In fact, the chamber was rebored to take the Pak40 case. But the shell itself is still a 7,62cm. You can't rebore the whole length of the gun tube for downsizing it from 7,62cm to 7,5cm !
Ammunition was packed with a different naming : 7,62cm Pak36 instead of 7,5cm Pak 40.
The use of 7,62cm ammo in a Pak40 would be dramatic.

Cheers
Eric

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Eric

The nominal calibre of the gun was 76.2mm, as a ex gun fitter having to examine the wear on gun barrels I never found one that was its nominal size they all were larger diameter due to wear. I think most 7.5cm/7.62 cm barrels would have been condemned when their wear was near 8 cm or even greater at the commencement of the rifling. Now a 7.5 cm shell or shot has a driving band wider than its nominated size as it engages the rifling so it could have been possible to fire it from a 7.62 cm barrel. It would have been a lot of work to remove 7.62 cm shells from their cartridge cases and refit them on 7.5cm cartridges. And what would they have done when they ran out of captured shells? Set up a second production line to make yet another shell of about the same size?

I could be wrong on the shell.

Edit , a second thought on the shell and cartridge, if using the Soviet shell wouldn't the neck of the cartridge need modification?

Clive

[J-Feder-504]

Hi Clive !

I was an ammo and packaging collector before police considered it as "deviant".
Firing a 7.5cm into a 7,62cm rifle won't hurt. I'm not sure about the opposite for a 7,5cm new gun.

Russian complete rounds were used on unmodified guns. I had a case : US made, with russian markings, and then german markings !

New 7,62cm shells were manufactured and associated with the Pak40 case for rechambered guns. The shell was tipped in white to prevent confusion. Then the rounds were packed in steel containers or wooden crates similar to the Pak40 but with "Patr 7,62cm Pak 36" markings and labels ( labels giving the association: case 6340 St + 7,62cm for Pak 36 / FK39 guns ).

This is just my knowledge as a collector.

I found that reading on the subject:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/4 ... k-40/page2
And also here with a good reason for not firing a Pak 40 shell into a 7,62cm gun: the gas pressure !
http://fr.scribd.com/doc/34767729/Ammun ... -in-German


Cheers
Eric

[Grzesio]

Germans produced their own ammunition specially for the 7,62 cm Pak 36.
For example, the 7,62 cm PzGr 39 rot was of the APCBC type, while Soviets were not making APCBC ammo during the war at all.
The standard AP cartridge for 7,62 Pak 36 was 7,62 cm Pzgr Patr 39 rot, for the 7,5 cm Pak 40 - 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 39 Pak 40. HE cartridges were 7,62 cm Sprgr Patr 39 and 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 34 Pak 40 respectively.
7,62 cm Pak 36 shells differed with diameters from their 7,5 cm Pak 40 counterparts. The 7,62 Pzgr 39 rot was 306.5 mm long, had 76 mm bourrelet diameter and 78 mm driving band diameter. The 7,5 cm Pzgr 39 had these dimensions 278 mm, 74.7 mm and 77.5 mm respectively.
As far as HE shells are concerned, the 7,62 mm Spgr 39 of the 7,62 cm Pak 36 had 360 mm, 76 mm and 78 mm dimensions, while 7,5 cm Gr 34 of the 7,5 cm Pak 40 - 344.9 mm, 74.7 mm and 78.2 mm.
7,62 cm Pzgr 40 and 7,5 cm Pzgr 40 APCR projectiles for both guns were of the same length - 340 mm and construction, they differed only with diameters of of bourrelet and driving band - identical as APCBC ones.

Regards

Grzesio

[J-Feder-504]

Hi Grzesio

Thanks for the data. With your permission, I will save it and use it in case there is another question on modeller forums.
Very glad to read that the length of the shells is not the same between PaK40 and PaK36.

Eric

[ain92]

Germans produced their own ammunition specially for the 7,62 cm Pak 36.
For example, the 7,62 cm PzGr 39 rot was of the APCBC type, while Soviets were not making APCBC ammo during the war at all.
The standard AP cartridge for 7,62 Pak 36 was 7,62 cm Pzgr Patr 39 rot, for the 7,5 cm Pak 40 - 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 39 Pak 40. HE cartridges were 7,62 cm Sprgr Patr 39 and 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 34 Pak 40 respectively.
7,62 cm Pak 36 shells differed with diameters from their 7,5 cm Pak 40 counterparts. The 7,62 Pzgr 39 rot was 306.5 mm long, had 76 mm bourrelet diameter and 78 mm driving band diameter. The 7,5 cm Pzgr 39 had these dimensions 278 mm, 74.7 mm and 77.5 mm respectively.
As far as HE shells are concerned, the 7,62 mm Spgr 39 of the 7,62 cm Pak 36 had 360 mm, 76 mm and 78 mm dimensions, while 7,5 cm Gr 34 of the 7,5 cm Pak 40 - 344.9 mm, 74.7 mm and 78.2 mm.
7,62 cm Pzgr 40 and 7,5 cm Pzgr 40 APCR projectiles for both guns were of the same length - 340 mm and construction, they differed only with diameters of of bourrelet and driving band - identical as APCBC ones.

Regards

Grzesio

Hello all,
1946 Soviet album for artillery ammunition of former German army gives different data for lengths (the list isn't full):

• 345 mm for 7,5 cm Sprgr. 34 and 42
• 282 mm for 7,5 cm Pzgr. 39
• 241 mm for 7,5 cm Pzgr. 40
  versus
• 358.5 mm for 7,62 mm Gr. 39
• 301.5 mm for 7,62 cm Pzgr. 39 rot
• 242.0 mm for 7,62 cm Pzgr. 40

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Grzesio and Eric for the information on the ammunition.

Edit... It just shows how good this forum is once we start to debate something and people share their knowledge.

[Grzesio]

I took dimensions from the Geschossringbuch: http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/geschossringbuch.pdf
Ammunition manuals for 7,5 cm Pak 40 and 7,62 cm Pak 36: http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/h.dv.48177.pdf
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/h.dv.48185.pdf

[jopaerya]

Two other Ebay picture's of this PaK gun , Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

A other one from Ebay , Regards Jos

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I am not sure but I think an 7.62cm Pak 36(r) gun

Image from Ebay
Sturm78

[Alanmccoubrey]

Sturm, if it has the two control wheels on the left, and it does, then it must be the Pak 36(r).

[Manuferey]

Hi guys,

May I remind you that there was no "(r)" in the German designation since the Germans modify the original soviet gun so extensively? Same as for the 7,62 cm FK 39.

We had a discussion in 2009 about it here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=143147

Separately, the gun's tractor in the picture looks like an ex-French Somua MCG half-track.

Emmanuel