Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

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jopaerya
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Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by jopaerya » 24 Jan 2011 20:47

Hello

Came across a document with the Einsatzstab Dackel in Le Havre ( 7/1944 ) under command of the
Kplt. Seeger they used the T 3 d , the intention was to attack the invasion fleet with these torpedo's ??
Does anyone know how this torpedo was launched and was it a guided torpedo ??

Regards Jos

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SES
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by SES » 24 Jan 2011 22:15

Hi Jos,
With a little Google foo of the third order please see:
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?3, ... 17,quote=1
bregds
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by jopaerya » 25 Jan 2011 07:07

Thanks SES

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by SES » 25 Jan 2011 08:36

My pleasure.
bregds
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Natter
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 01 Sep 2012 16:12

Some additional info on the G7e TIIId Dackel torpedo:
It used a standard Ka warhead with a Pi1d pistol: A standard Pi1 adaption, with the water-flap removed (due to the torpedo's slow speed it would not have released the safety-impeller). For the same reason, the copper-wire securing the impeller was removed and replaced by a rope being pulled off before launch.

I have copies of reports on the development and testing of the torpedo (allied translations).

See also attachments (note the arrangement for stowing and launch-position of the 11m long torpedo from a S-Boot).
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 01 Sep 2012 16:15

..the last attachment
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by jopaerya » 01 Sep 2012 18:01

Thanks Natter

Very nice drawings , I will post tomorrow some information about the T3d in Normandie .

Regards Jos

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by jopaerya » 02 Sep 2012 10:01

25-07-1944 - Le Havre = Arrival of Einsatzstab Dackel in Le Havre under command of Kptlt. Seeger

Meantime preperations were made to set-up observationpost and placing of buoys .

31-07-1944 - Le Havre = Loading of a S-boote with T3d takes two and half hour ( testing first time )

01/02-08-1944 - Le Havre = Three S-boote of the 6.S.-Flottille were loaded with 12 x T3d
lot of problems with the cranes and a Allied bomberattack on the 02-1944 on the harbour ,
night attack on the 03-1944 was cancelled .

05-08-1944 - Le Havre = First attack with 6 boats with 24 T3d from 0110 till 0150 because
of heavy clouds no sight on succes , 9 explosions were heared .

06-08-1944 - Le Havre = Three boats with 12 T3d attack from 0155 till 0220 without succes .

07-08-1944 - Le Havre = Again a attack with 11 T3d without any succes from 0230 till 0255,
because there were no torpedo's left no attack on the 08-08-1944 .

09-08-1944 - Le Havre = Attack with the S 174 , S 180 and S 79 with 10 T3d from 0359-0420
explosions and fireflashes were observed .

10-08-1944 - Le Havre = Again the three S boots fired 11 T3d torpedo's from 0449 till 0510
four explosions were heard .

11-08-1944 - Le Havre = Last 10 T3d were fired bij the S 97 , S 79 and S 177 from 0448 -0531
2 explosions were heard , Einsatzstab Böhme ( Kleinkampf ) think torpedonets were layed
on the eastern side of the landingbeaches to protect the ships .

14-08-1944 - Last T3d were tranported from Paris to Le Havre and were tired by two boats
from 2258- 2329

A few remarks there are talking about Sonderkommado Wotan and a extra naval radar at Trouville .

Regards Jos

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Manuferey » 03 Sep 2012 15:21

SES wrote:Hi Jos,
With a little Google foo of the third order please see:
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?3, ... 17,quote=1
bregds
SES
In the thread, it is mentioned that HMS Albatross was torpedoed of the coast of Juno Beach on October 11, 1944. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albat ... ne_tender)
AFAIK, at that date, there was no longer any S-Boot or "human torpedoes" or midget submarines operating from bases in France. Therefore, I wonder what launched the torpedo that damaged HMS Albatross? Could that have been instead an airplane?

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 03 Sep 2012 17:22

Manuferey wrote:In the thread, it is mentioned that HMS Albatross was torpedoed of the coast of Juno Beach on October 11, 1944. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albat ... ne_tender)
It doesn't..?
Quote: "My grandfather was sunk on HMS Albatross 11/08/44"

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 03 Sep 2012 17:26

jopaerya wrote:25-07-1944 - Le Havre = Arrival of Einsatzstab Dackel in Le Havre under command of Kptlt. Seeger

Meantime preperations were made to set-up observationpost and placing of buoys .

31-07-1944 - Le Havre = Loading of a S-boote with T3d takes two and half hour ( testing first time )
Thank you, very interesting! All my papers are concerning technical aspects of development and testing (that's my main interest anyway). I can't find the document now but I'm sure I have seen some reference to testing from at least the "Marder" midget submarine. However, I think it sounds strange to use such an extremely long-range weapon from such a short-range platform (especially as it had no practical way of sighting besides a predefinied compass-course).

Your post indicates S-Boote as the primary platform, and probably the only used in action?

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Jens Andersen » 03 Sep 2012 18:43

In the thread, it is mentioned that HMS Albatross was torpedoed of the coast of Juno Beach on October 11, 1944. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albat ... ane_tender)
AFAIK, at that date, there was no longer any S-Boot or "human torpedoes" or midget submarines operating from bases in France. Therefore, I wonder what launched the torpedo that damaged HMS Albatross? Could that have been instead an airplane?
V.E. Tarrant states in his "The last year of the Kriegsmarine" (p. 104) that the Albatros was sunk by a Dackel fired from an S-boat.

On eight nights between 4/5 and 17/18 August they fired 91 Dackel from a position some 15 miles west of Le Havre. Only four of these found targets, damaging HMS Albatross, transport Iddesleigh, minesweeper HMS Vestal and cruiser HMS Frobisher.

Jens

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Manuferey » 03 Sep 2012 18:45

Natter wrote:
Manuferey wrote:In the thread, it is mentioned that HMS Albatross was torpedoed of the coast of Juno Beach on October 11, 1944. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Albat ... ne_tender)
It doesn't..?
Quote: "My grandfather was sunk on HMS Albatross 11/08/44"
I trusted Wikipedia too much as it mentions October. :oops:

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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 03 Sep 2012 19:06

Not entirely on topic, but maybe of some interest still, so I hope I'm forgiven:

The germans also developed a special variant of the TIIId called "Pudel". This was a torpedomine, with basically the same function as the "Dackel", but with the additional feature of sinking to the bottom after the run by means of a special valve flooding the torpedo's battery compartment. The torpedo would then act as a traditional mine.

A report mentions tactics and use for the "Pudel" to be the same as for the "Dackel", with S-Boote and "Floss" (some kind of raft??) and optionally a midget submarine to be used as launch-platform.

The standard 375kg warhead was changed to a mine-charge of 675kg (a smaller battery and light-weigh airtanks were used to compensate, though there was a slight loss in range and speed compared to the "Dackel"). The larger weight at the front proved a potential problem during tests due to the head's position out of the tube in launch-position on the S-Boote (ref. sketch in my previous post above).

The first attachement shows different stages of development (type 1 - 4). A report I have lists testresults from a total of twentytwo test-shots with the four different prototypes (two shots with the final type 4, were one shot had a directional fault).
The second attachment shows the special warhead developed for the "Pudel", with the modified Pi1 pistol for torpedo-function + the minezunder (the latter took control from the pistol when the sinking-valve was activated at a certain level of rest-pressure in the airtanks).


An allied report states that development on the "Pudel" was seized in september 1944, in favour of the "Hai" midget submarine (a stretched variant of the "Marder").
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Re: Einsatzstab Dackel Torpedo 3 d

Post by Natter » 03 Sep 2012 19:46

I have browsed through some of the "Dackel"-reports, and I think I have misinterpreted something: It appears the torpedo was tested from (for optional use) small surface vessels, not midget subs (like the steamer "Strande" in the photo in my previous post).


Some additional technical info:

The torpedo was fitted with a self-destruction-mechanism for the LUT-apparatus (due to the torpedo's slow speed, it was considered a real threat it could be recovered, or perhaps - due to strong streams - be washed ashore), which was considered a vital secret*
The mechanism was controlled by the Pi1d pistol (which was fitted with only electric detonators, compared to the standard 2 mechanical/2 electrical - again due to ensure proper function on the low speed).

TIIIa Lut I torpedoes was used as basis for the TIIId, combined with centre-elements left over from manufacture of "Molch" midget submarines.

213 test-shots were done during development. An average speed of 9,2kn and an average range of 60km was obtained (30km was considered the optimal range though, due to the "travelling" of the gyroscope, making the torpedo drift off course). Every 10th of the production-series torpedo was ranged to verify and add data to the initial testing.

Only 300 torpedoes ordered and constructed, 80-90 fired in combat (ref. *).


* According to "B.R.1972 Technical Staff Monographs 1939-1945, German Torpedoes and Development of German Torpedo Control" (1952), LUT and acoustic seeker was considered the major german torpedo innovations, with LUT being the most substantial.

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