12 cm Granatwerfer 42

[Draoich]

Hi ain92,
Thank you for that information. I looked up the translation given in the Wikimedia file page and it states "French 120 mm Brandt mortar produced in 1935", which ties in with my own identification based on similarities with other Brandt 120mm mortars. I would suggest that, if any Brandt mortar was taken as the basis for the Soviet PM-38 120mm mortar then it would have to be this model.
Regards,
Draoich

[veeteetee]

I seriously think that the 120 mm mortar in the Israeli museum is this http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/image ... 01951w.jpg

However, for a definite recognition we´d a good quality original photo of both the Brandt model 1935 and 1951.

[Draoich]

Hi veeteetee,
You may be right. I have also seen this cover page from the Instruction Manual for the Brandt 120mm Light Mortar Model 1951 and there are a lot of similarities. However, There is an illustration on page 62 of 'Mortars', by Ian V. Hogg, which is captioned as the 'Brandt 120mm Light Model' and stating that this was from before 1940, showing a mortar with a similar base-plate (but without any wheeled trailer). The base-plate can just been seen in the photo from Israel. I agree that the only way to decide is to find more photos of both the 1935 Light 120mm mortar and also of the 1951 Light 120mm mortar.

Regards,
Draoich

[SASH155]

Hi Strum98,

Here some from Ian Hogg: Granadas y morteros. Printed in Spain, you know it?. I suppose you read spanish.
On the previous page there is a text: "El mortero aleman de la guerra no fue realmente aleman; fue ruso. Los sovieticos habian producido uno muy....... then the text in the photos.
I hope it helps something.

Cheers

Arto

01.jpg

02.jpg

I believe that the 2cd photo in this post is actually the Soviet PM-38, not the GrW-42, due to the carriage which matches other pictures of verified Soviet 120mm PM-38s, note the wheels especially. I noticed something else in some of these photos: the yoke on at least some of the supposed German made weapons is very heavy and rectangular in profile, which is not always the case w/the identified Soviet ones. It seems to closely resemble the yokes seen on the other German mortars such as the 8cm sGrW-34 and 10cm NbW-35. Also, does anyone have a verified photo of a 120mm PM-43? Supposedly the recoil cylinder/s were much longer on this version than on the PM-38.

[SASH155]

Here is a photo from Ebay of a 120mm mortar. It is described as a German 120mm mortar and the photo is stated as taken during the Korean War. I cannot determine if the mortar is German or Russian but I think the trailer is German because this type is shown in the German manual for the 12cm GrW 43 Mortar.
Regards,
Draoich

I think that I first saw this photo from an article on Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily. This weapon seems to have the characteristic German style disc wheels, not the Soviet type with the large triangular holes (from GAZ AA and AAA trucks).

[Granatwerfer]

Hi Guys

New to this forum, looks very interesting and full of information.

I thought you might like to see pictures of my 12cm Gr.W. 378(r) mortar. The tube, recoil unit and baseplate are all Russian, German captured and the bipod unit I think is German. Will need to study a lot more pictures to confirm.

Still need the end cap that contained the firing mechanism and connected the tube to the baseplate.

Regards

Richard

[Granatwerfer]

Hi Guys

Just one more picture for you.

Regards

Richard

[ain92]

Helo Granatwerfer. Have you seen any markings on the mortar? And do you need a technical manual?

[Granatwerfer]

Hi ain92

The only markings I have found on the tube are near the area where the recoil unit fits. They are 01 in one spot and 320 or 329, not clear, in another.

I have copies of the manuals for the German and Russian versions both in German, but looking for more. Do you have any.

I can supply pictures of the markings if needed.

Regards

Richard

[SASH155]

BTW: Can anyone here provide photos of confirmed 120mm PM-38s vs. confirmed 120mm PM-43s? I have looked at photos for years of alleged examples of these two mortars until my eyes fall out, and for the life of me I can't tell the difference between the two. Supposedly the recoil cylinders were reinforced and somewhat longer (and perhaps slightly wider???) on the PM-43 than on the original PM-38; in the past some publications have claimed that the PM-43 had just one long recoil cylinder, which must certainly be incorrect, as most photos of alleged '43s clearly show two fairly short cylinders which honestly do not seem that different from those of supposed PM-38s. Is there a sure fire way to truly tell these two mortars apart? Frustrated...

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

Another 120mm PM-38 Soviet mortar captured:

Image from EBay
Sturm78

[Draoich]

Hi Everybody,
In relation to SASH155's recent post on identifiable differences between the Soviet 120mm PM-38 and PM-43M, I have found that the PM-43 120mm mortar has some visual differences from the PM-38 120mm mortar. The recoil cylinders are longer and the bipod mounted levelling adjuster has also been simplified, although there is also a PM-43 Variant with the precise levelling adjuster.

The traverse mechanism’ yoke was also extended to increase the amount of traverse adjustment available. The mortar’s breech cup was also re-designed but this is not evident to a visual inspection.

I attach a photo, taken from Flickr, showing a PM-43 mortar in the Ontario Museum in Canada. This is incorrectly captioned as a PM-38 120mm mortar.
Regards,
Draoich

[Granatwerfer]

Hi Guys

Went to the Ciney show on the 28th April and picked up another 120mm mortar round and collected an ammo box from a friend.

Still looking for the breech part of the mortar, transport caps for the rounds and any of the following fuzes. AZ41, Wgr Z 38st, Wgr Z 38C, 12cm Wgr Patr42 and a Stellschlussel fur AZ35K.

Can someone tell what colour the rounds should be and can you get stencils for the markings.

Best regards

Richard

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I am not sure about this one: PM-38 or Gr.Wfr.42 ??

Image from EBay
Sturm78

[Granatwerfer]

If you blow up the picture the first guy on the left has his hand near the adjuster. The adjuster looks to be a small winding handle that folds in, the same as on my mortar, so I would say it is PM-38.

Regards

Richard