12 cm Granatwerfer 42

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Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#61

Post by Sturm78 » 16 Jun 2013, 12:01

Thank you, Richard.

Regards Sturm78

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#62

Post by Sturm78 » 16 Jun 2013, 16:32

Hi again,

Another blurry image from EBay. I think another 120mm PM-38 but I am not sure

Sturm78
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mortar.jpeg


Draoich
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011, 10:22

Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#63

Post by Draoich » 17 Jun 2013, 01:11

Hi All,
I cannot see enough detail to make any identification of the 120mm mortar shown in Sturm's last post. There are some very interesting photos of Soviet 120mm mortars to be found in the newly released material from the Finnish wartime photo archive "SA-kuva" . I attach one showing the end of a mortar barrel with the breech mechanism removed. The breech mechanism on the PM-38 had to be unscrewed to install a replacement firing pin.
Regards,
Draoich
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77180_r500.jpg
77180_r500.jpg (19.81 KiB) Viewed 1989 times

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#64

Post by Sturm78 » 24 Jun 2013, 16:42

Hi all,

Another image of an 120mm mortar. Soviet or German ??

Sturm78
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de7f5b39646b.jpg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#65

Post by Draoich » 25 Jun 2013, 23:36

Hi all,

Sturm78's most recently posted photo of a 120mm mortar is difficult one to identify as to whether it was Soviet or German. The mortar Sight is most definitely German. It has the rear viewing mirror found on both the RA35 and the RA42 mortar sights. Both of these German Sights would fit directly on the 12cm GrW 42 mortar. However, this particular photo shows the Sight raised on an extension bracket. The purpose of this bracket is to raise the Sight so that the view of the Zeilen stangen (Aiming Rods) was unobstructed, even if the mortar was sited in a protective pit. I attach a photo from http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 62&t=31111. This shows a German crew operating a 12cm mortar with a similar Sight Extension Bracket. The mortar in this second photo is also difficult to identify.

Sturm78's mortar could be Soviet with an adapter at one end of the extension bar. An extension bar with this fitting would be very easy to make and fit as the 120mm PM-38 mortar had a dove-tail socket mounting for the Sight (although these were also supplied with a pipe socket for the Soviet' bar-mounted Sight).

Regards,
Draoich
Attachments
12cmGW42.jpg

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#66

Post by Sturm78 » 27 Jun 2013, 11:42

Thank you for your answer, Draoich


Here, two small images from EBay.
I think the first image shows an 12cm Gr.Wfr.42 mortar, because thw wheels are the German design


Regards Sturm78
Attachments
12cm Gr.Wfr.42 in tow with limber.jpg
12cm Gr.Wfr.42 in tow with limber.jpg (64.85 KiB) Viewed 1855 times
12cm mortar and crew in field.jpg
12cm mortar and crew in field.jpg (89.18 KiB) Viewed 1855 times

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#67

Post by Draoich » 06 Jul 2013, 22:22

Hi All,
I think that the mortar trailer shown in Sturm78's last photos may be the German trailer for the 12cm Grw42 mortar. I attach a photo found at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... -10-1.jpgg which, in my opinion is the same German type for the 12cm GrW42 Mortar.
Regards,
Draoich
Attachments
120mm MORTAR - BATEY HAOSEF.jpg
120mm MORTAR - BATEY HAOSEF.jpg (32.38 KiB) Viewed 1772 times

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#68

Post by Sturm78 » 08 Jul 2013, 00:02

Hi all,

Two images from EBay:

Image 1: I think Granatwerfer 42
Image 2: I think PM-38

Sturm78
Attachments
mortar with Falls crew.jpeg
mortar.jpeg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#69

Post by Draoich » 09 Jul 2013, 18:44

Hi All,
I also think that the two 120mm mortars shown in Sturm78's most recently posted photos are of a Grw 42 mortar and a Soviet PM-38 mortar respectively. Again, the mortar Sight in the first photo is most definitely German as it has the rear viewing mirror found on both the RA35 and the RA42 mortar sights. The mortar itself has a winding wheel on the Traverse mechanism which, I believe, positlvely identifies it as a 12cm GrW 42 mortar. Again, this particular photo shows the Sight raised on an extension bracket. I would very much like to see a close-up photo or detail drawing of this type of extension bracket.

Regards,
Draoich

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#70

Post by Sturm78 » 11 Jul 2013, 15:27

Thank you for your answer, Draoich.

Here, an image from EBay of a 12cm sGr.Wfr.42 in transport position:

Sturm78
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12cm sGr.Wfr.42 in transport position.jpeg

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#71

Post by Draoich » 27 Jul 2013, 10:06

Hi all,
I am curious as to what others think about the mortar shown in this photo, taken from http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... 5&t=239366. I think this is neither a Grw 42 mortar nor a Soviet PM-38 mortar. I thinkthe trailer type identifies the mortar as a 107mm KhM-38 Soviet mortar.
Regards,
Draoich
SOVIET MORTAR.jpg

Granatwerfer
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#72

Post by Granatwerfer » 28 Jul 2013, 00:20

Hi Draoich

I think you may be right as we have already established that my one is a captured PM-38. I have attached a close up of my barrel for comparison, It is similar, but there are differences.

Regards

Richard
Attachments
Gr.W 378(r) Russisch Tube.jpg
Gr.W 378(r) Russisch Tube.jpg (37.27 KiB) Viewed 1532 times

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#73

Post by Draoich » 28 Jul 2013, 18:47

Hi all,
Thank you Richard for the comparison and contrast to your own example of the 120mm PM-38 tube. It can be very difficult to be sure about some wartime photos which have been captioned (at some time period but not necessarily immediately) as identifying Soviet 120mm mortars when some of these are very likely KhM-38 107mm mortars. I have looked back at earlier photos in this thread and I think one of these, although described as an abandoned Russian 120mm mortar is very likely to be a 107mm KhM-38 mortar instead. This is the mortar shown in the second photo posted by Sturm78 on the 25/03/2011. The identifiers are two things: The trailer has no central strut (only trailers for the 107mm KhM-38 were built like this); and the base-plate seems to be of a slightly smaller diameter (you can gauge the base-plate size in relation to the trailer attachment arms). The actual difference in calibre is very small (13mm) so it is difficult to be sure when just looking at tube diameter, however the base-plates are also slightly different sizes (1025mm for the 120mm PM-38 and 940mm for the 107mm KhM-38, according to my notes). Richard should be able to verify the diameter of the base-plate for the 120mm PM-38.
Regards,
Draoich

Granatwerfer
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#74

Post by Granatwerfer » 28 Jul 2013, 20:43

Hi Guys

The baseplate I have I bought from a guy in Latvia who said it came from a site in Russia where a number of mortars had been blown up. So my baseplate could come from either the Gr.W 42 or Gr.W 378(r), I could find no markings as the surface is too rusty, but there are traces of sand paint, which is still not an indicator.

I can confirm that the diameter is 1025mm, I have attached a picture for interest.

Regards

Richard
Attachments
Baseplate Top 1.jpg
Baseplate Top 1.jpg (98.41 KiB) Viewed 1486 times

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

#75

Post by Draoich » 07 Aug 2013, 09:33

Hi All,
Here are 2 images from Lone Sentry (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/onth ... ortars.jpg) showing 120mm Soviet mortars being aimed.
Regards,
Draoich
Attachments
f5_red_army_soviet_russian_mortars.jpg
f5_red_army_soviet_russian_mortars.jpg (22.26 KiB) Viewed 1433 times

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