12 cm Granatwerfer 42

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 19 Jan 2014 18:11

Hi nemps,
Your information sounds very interesting. I wonder if you could post some photos of the trailer that you found in the Woods?
Regards,
Draoich

nemps
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by nemps » 19 Jan 2014 21:58

Hi, yes I try to make some pictures, but it will take couple days, problem is we used ATV to pull the frame out from woods and it was very muddy, but next day and full week it has been at least -12 celsius so the all mud freeze to the frame. And I do not like idea carry it to in to my house for melting. But I will work on it.

nemps
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by nemps » 21 Jan 2014 09:43

Here are the pictures:

Image

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Image

Image

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 21 Jan 2014 10:11

Hi nemps,
It must have been hard work getting the trailer back from the woods! It seems in general to be in quite good condition although I see that the bracket arms for picking up the mortar base-plate are broken off. Did you find them as well? Perhaps there may be date stamps at some place on the trailer? I note the diameter of approximately 145mm at the muzzle clamp bracket. I am not sure that this can be taken as indicating the mortar calibre as I have seen modern photos of these trailers with a pad between the clamp and the barrel. It is an amazing find. You must be very pleased. Congratulations!
Regards,
Draoich

nemps
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by nemps » 21 Jan 2014 11:07

Hi, I did not find the bracket arms, but I will go back in spring to search them. I have no idea what is the outer diameter of 120mm mortar, but if you see the pictures there are pins where the pads were connected and they are not very thick. Also if you look at the side shape of 107mm carrier it is not the same, altough I think that manufacturer for both carriers is same.

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 27 Jan 2014 15:20

Hi All,
I found a photo on ebay today showing a 12cm mortar in 1944, according to the caption. I am fairly certain that it is a photo of a German 12cm GrW 42 mortar. It shows some nice clear detail.
$_57.jpg
This photo looks very similar to a photo previously posted in this thread but this copy is very clear, showing the typical German Sight with the rear view mirror for sighting the Aiming Rods.
Regards,
Draoich
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Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 31 Jan 2014 00:03

Hi All,
I found a photo on the internet (Source ww2in colour.com) showing a 120mm mortar being used by the German Army. I am not sure whether it is a German 12cm GrW 42 mortar or a captured Russian 120mm PM-38 mortar.
89th. Infanterie Division Hurtgen Forest.jpg
Regards,

Draoich
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Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 02 Feb 2014 20:53

Hi All,
In his most recent post, nemps said that he had no idea what the external diameter of the 120mm mortar barrel was. I had no idea either but 'Granatwerfer', another colleague who posts on this thread and who actually owns a 120mm PM-38, has since told me that the external barrel diameter is 132mm at a point about 150mm below the muzzle. The internal dimension of the barrel clamp on nemps' trailer is approximately 145mm. This would leave room for around 6mm thick padding in the barrel clamp. It is reasonable to assume that the barrel side-wall thickness of the muzzle area, in the 107mm Khm-38 mortar, would be similar to that of the 120mm PM-38. This would result in an external barrel diameter, at the clamp location, of about 119mm. This diameter plus 12mm for padding (2 x 6mm) would imply an internal (steel) clamp diameter of around 131mm. This is about 14mm less than the barrel clamp diameter on nemps' example. This certainly seems to indicate that nemps' trailer is for the 120mm PM-38 mortar rather than the 107mm mortar. There is, however, another possibility which is that the trailer could accommodate either type but would need a greater depth of padding to the barrel clamp (2x13mm) to accommodate the 107mm mortar barrel. In my opinion this second possibility is not so likely.
Regards,
Draoich

nemps
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by nemps » 03 Feb 2014 22:22

Hi.
I posted photos of carriage from woods also in Estonian military forum, and there one guy send me pictures of his 107mm carriage :

Image

I asked him about inner diameter of clamp and he replayed that it is about 115 mm

Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 04 Feb 2014 09:53

Hi All,
Thank you nemps, for the additional information and the extremely interesting photo of the trailer for the 107mm Khm-38. The inner clamp diameter certainly provides hard evidence that there are 2 separate trailers of similar design. The type which you have found is clearly for the 120mm mortar while your colleague's trailer is certainly for the 107mm mortar. The physical differences between these trailers (in my opinion) are as follows:
120mm PM-38' trailer has an inner clamp diameter of approximately 133mm with padding fitted (145mm steel) and the chassis has only one transverse member other than the axle; while the 107mm Khm-38' trailer has an inner clamp diameter of approximately 115mm with padding fitted (127mm steel?) and the chassis has two transverse members in addition to the axle.

The number of transverse members on a mortar trailer of this general type should be identifiable in wartime photographs. This could enable an identification to be made as to whether the trailer is for a 120mm mortar or a 107mm mortar.

Regards,
Draoich

Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Sturm78 » 10 Mar 2014 11:48

Hi all,

I would say a 120mm PM-38 mortar on his trailer:

Image from EBay
Sturm78
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Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 19 Mar 2014 23:33

Hi All,
Yes, I agree that Sturm 78's last post shows a 120mm PM 38 on trailer. I found an interesting photo on Flickr today, which I suggest shows a 12cm GrW 42 mortar in firing position.
12110232553_376c4a9bda_o.jpg
Regards,

Draoich
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Sturm78
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Sturm78 » 21 Mar 2014 10:00

Hi all,

An image from EBay:

Sturm78
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Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 27 Mar 2014 22:07

Hi All,
The limber/ ammunition trailer is another item associated with both German and Soviet 120mm mortars. It seems to me that any mortar limbers used by the German are actually captured Russian ones. Does anyone know if there was more than one type/ model of limber? I attach a photo of an abandoned Soviet limber which I found on Ebay some time ago.
SOVIET PM 38 120mm MORTAR ABANDONED WITH LIMBER - PHOTO 1.jpg
Regards,
Draoich
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Draoich
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Re: 12cm Granatwerfer 42

Post by Draoich » 08 Apr 2014 20:54

Hi All,
Here is a photo of a Russian limber/ ammunition trailer for the PM-38 120mm mortar. It appears that in this type of limber that the mortar ammunition was held in a rack enclosed within a steel outer covering which had a moveable lid. This photo came from the SA-KUVA website.
79620_r500.jpg
Regards,

Draoich
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