75mm Mle 1897 in german service

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Clive Mortimore
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Clive Mortimore » 12 Jan 2012 09:53

carius wrote:Amunition trailers?

George
Hi George

They look more like generators, AA batteries needed power for the ranging equipment and to transmit the information to the guns.

Clive
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Sturm78
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Feb 2012 17:35

Hi all,

Can somebody identify the nationality of these soldiers with a 75mm Mle 1897 gun?

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
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Clive Mortimore
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Clive Mortimore » 23 Feb 2012 20:11

Sturm78 wrote:Hi all,

Can somebody identify the nationality of these soldiers with a 75mm Mle 1897 gun?

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
Hi Sturm

French colonial?

Clive
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CanKiwi2
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by CanKiwi2 » 25 Feb 2012 02:29

Another question on the 75mm Mle 1897 - use as an anti-tank gun. The question is more around how the guns were made (or refurbished).

After running into new Allied medium and heavy tanks (such as Soviet T-34 and KV-1) Germans found out that they needed antitank guns larger than 50 mm Pak. As a stop gap solution this 75-mm antitank gun was introduced. It basically combined gun barrel of French 75-mm model 1897 field gun equipped with muzzle-break to carriage of German 5.0 cm Pak 38. Ammunition used typically included captured French HE-rounds, captured Polish AP-rounds and German made HEAT-rounds, however using AP-rounds was not favoured and HEAT was the main ammunition type in antitank use with German troops. Reason for that was quite simple: Gun was quite unstable and recoil with AP-rounds was so fearsome that Germans nicknamed this gun type as "Mustang". The Gun was introduced to German troops in November of 1941 and in years 1941 - 1942 some 700 guns of this type were manufactured. According some sources the total production totalled about 3700 guns. 7.5 cm Pak 97/38 as Germans called it was far from perfect, but it worked and was cheap to produce (cost and need of work were about two thirds of what was needed with 7.5 cm Pak 40).

Finland had bought 48 French 75-mm field guns model 1897 (called 75 K 97 in Finland) and 50,000 shells from France in 1940. Barrels of the bought guns were in terribly worn down condition and dispersion in arch fire was unacceptably large. Year 1942 all 75 K 97 field guns were gathered away from fortification artillery batteries that had used them. By February of 1943 the Finns had decided to check if the Germans were willing to build them 7,5 cm Pak 97/38 antitank-guns from 60 gun barrels of 75 K 97 that the Finns had. An agreement was achieved and the Germans manufactured 46 antitank guns for the Finns by using delivered gun barrels.

My question is - how were the barrels for the 75mm 1897 used to make the anti-tank gun barrels? Were they rebored or relined or something like that? Seems like for the Finns, 60 barrels were used to build 46 guns. Or did they melt down the barrels and recast them or something?

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photo from http://www.jaegerplatoon.net - 75 PstK/97-38 antitank gun ready for transport
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

Dili
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Dili » 25 Feb 2012 03:22

For the AA
7.5cm F.K. M.97 in Lafette C39 at Porto Koufo in Greece
What will be the German unit with this gun in Greece? Luftwaffe? Heer?

Btw the C39 mount the 39 is the year? 1939?


Discussion on amount that went to Italians includes those that Italian captured themselves:
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/to ... f-7534-aa/

It appears that Italians acquired more than 200 AA guns of this type.

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Clive Mortimore » 25 Feb 2012 09:49

CanKiwi2 wrote:Another question on the 75mm Mle 1897 - use as an anti-tank gun. The question is more around how the guns were made (or refurbished).


My question is - how were the barrels for the 75mm 1897 used to make the anti-tank gun barrels? Were they rebored or relined or something like that? Seems like for the Finns, 60 barrels were used to build 46 guns. Or did they melt down the barrels and recast them or something?
The Germans captured so many 75mm Mle 97 they were able to chose which were the better barrels for reuse as 7.5cm Pak 97/38. There would also had been a stock of new barrels to replace the ones in service when they became worn, these possibly would have been used as first choice for a "new" anti tank gun. The 75mm mle 97 barrel was of a built-up pattern, the inner barrel had outer tubes and hoops shrunk on it to keep it in shape when it was fired. When this pattern of barrel becomes worn it is normally scraped and a new one built.

Something I am not sure about is the manufacture of spare barrels. I can only assume that as the 75mm mle 97 was still France's main artillery weapon replacement barrels may still been in production in 1940, if so would the Germans continued this after the occupation of France?

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CanKiwi2
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by CanKiwi2 » 25 Feb 2012 10:44

Thx Clive. Jarkko also posted a reply on the Finland forum which has helped as well. I dont think the Finns had any new barrels, so the explanation below makes sense.

While I have not seen any document that would explain the process in detail, apparently gun barrels were neither rebored or relined. Notice that they are still using the same 75 mm x 350 R ammunition as the original field gun. Photos suggest that they just took gun barrel and recoil mechanism from French 1897 field gun, added muzzle brake and installed them to gun carriage of 5 cm Pak 38 / 50 PstK/38. Gun barrel that produces unacceptably large dispersion of shots to shooting distance of 7.9 kilometers may produce perfectly acceptable accuracy to distance of 500 meters (typical maximum shooting distance for antitank-gun against tanks in usual Finnish terrain). In fact one could argue that this was one of the reasons why so many old light field guns were transferred from field artillery to fortification artillery or coastal artillery during Continuation War. Both coastal artillery and fortification artillery used light field guns often for direct laying in which worn barrel was notably smaller issue.

If the Germans would have rebored or relined the barrel as part of making Pak 97/38 it would have made sense for them to modify the chamber for larger cartridge case capable providing higher muzzle velocity (and more armour penetration), but they decided not to do so - likely because with original chamber they could use captured French and Polish ammunition that was readily available. There is no info what happened to the 14 Finnish sent gun barrels that the Germans didn't use for making these guns, but educated guess is that they considered these to be in too worn to be used even in antitank-guns and returned them (later on Finnish inventory lists include 14 barrels for 75 K/97).

Jarkko
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

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Franzl Rider
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Franzl Rider » 03 Mar 2012 19:23

Interesting info about Finland.

The gun barrels were not rebored but 4 strengthening hoops were sweated around the barrels.

From ebay a Pak 97/38
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Franzl Rider
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Franzl Rider » 03 Mar 2012 19:23

And a second picture from ebay
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peeved
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by peeved » 25 Mar 2012 10:00

WW 1 AA conversion from exp. eBay.de.

Markus
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Manuferey
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Manuferey » 25 Mar 2012 15:31

Nice find ! Thanks Markus.

It could be the relined version: 7,7 cm L/35 (franz.).

Emmanuel

Sturm78
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Jul 2012 09:09

Hi all,

Three images from Ebay: 75mm Mle 1897 on conical pedestal mount: 7.5cm KM97f.
According to photocaption, France

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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by jopaerya » 23 Jul 2012 09:30

Hi Sturm78

Could be Bat.Toulbroch ( near Brest ) BTW very nice picture's from Ebay , also the 24 cm and 10.5 cm guns 8O

Regards Jos

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Manuferey
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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by Manuferey » 01 Aug 2012 01:03

Sturm78 wrote:Hi all,
75mm Mle 1897 on conical pedestal mount
Sturm78
The official French name of this gun on the conical pedestal was "canon de 75 Mle 1897 sur affût Mle 1916 approprié pour le tir des obus éclairants" :wink: (i.e a 75 mm Model 1897 gun on Model 1916 mount designed for firing illuminating shells"). It could also be used for AA purposes. The name was shortened as "canon de 75 E et CA" in French Navy documents. By comparison, the version with the "crinoline" mount was called "canon de 75 G".

I'm not sure if the Germans made a difference between the two versions or used the same "beute" designation.

Emmanuel

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Re: 75mm Mle 1897 in german service

Post by jopaerya » 19 Oct 2012 19:02

Here the same gun on a French fort as on page 1 , picture is Ebay .

Regards Jos
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