Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Sam Wren
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To get back to Graf Waldersee...

Post by Sam Wren » 24 Dec 2014 11:04

I am still going through the 13,000 plus documents that I photographed on my last research trip, so I am basically just kind of throwing things out as I come across them with little comment because I have not had much time to really digest anything. There have been several different battery numbers thrown out for Graf Waldersee, but this extract from a British interrogation report gives it as 11./Art.Rgt. 1716. "Plumetor" is, undoubtedly, "Plumetot".
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 24 Dec 2014 17:56

Thanks, Sam.

There are several evidences:
a) The creation of a battery, the 11., nickname "Waldersee"
b) This battery started in April 1944 with 6 SP 15 cm guns (but probably not French), on tracked vehicle (could be this one, of French origin) and 1x 2 cm Flak
c) This battery, weren't independent, it was part of the Art.Rgt. 1716
d) This battery was on the Caen area. It was engaged with the British troops


(My wishlist for Christmas): :)
It will be nice, to have this kind of information on the SP battery of the 709. ID, (of the 711. ID, will be also good).

And the complete discrimination of the "artillery assets" of the 21.PD, number and type of Reihenwerfer (4x Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125 and 4x Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192 ?), Vielfachwerfer (2x 10./AR 155 ?) on French half-tracks, the observation and ammunition vehicles, on captured French vehicles, on the Lorraine 37L (Beobachtungswagen auf Lorraine Schlepper (f), 30 produced and Munitionstransportkraftwagen auf Lorraine Schlepper) and on the Renault UE Chenillette (Kleiner Funk- und Beobachtungspanzer auf Infanterie-Schlepper UE(f)). And of course, the Selbstfahrlafette für 28/32 cm Wurfrahmen auf Infanterie-Schlepper UE(f), 40 built in the 2 versions.

The StuG.Abt. 200 composition also have some kind of a mystery.


By way, a Merry Christmas for everyone and our family and friends. :milwink:
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

Sam Wren
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Sam Wren » 25 Dec 2014 10:13

Olá e Feliz Natal Rui!

Unfortunately, the published Gliederungen were not always (and perhaps rarely) absolutely accurate and/or complete, at least those related to the units that fought in Normandy that I have studied. There are omissions of vehicles/weapons that were known to exist (photographic evidence) and inclusions of weapons/vehicles that did not exist (or at least should not have).

In the case of 21.PD, the Raketenwerfer (Vielfachwerfer) - Somua MCL halftracks with an armored, enclosed body with rocket launchers on top simliar to the Panzerwerfer 42 - are known to exist due to Becker's records (as published in Spielberger's book), due to photographic records and due to 21.PD records, but they are not included in the Gliederungen. While I don't know if the number that were incorporated in 21.PD is recorded anywhere (I am away from home, at my parents' house for Christmas), the photographic and archival records indicate that there was a Zug of these records attached to the Stab of SturmGeschutz-Abteilung 200. There is no record of them being included in Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 155.

The Gliederungen of the 21.PD includes a special symbol for the Reihenwerfers, which were Somua halftracks with an open backs in which were mounted a double row (from whence the name comes - Reihen being German for "row") of French Brantdt 81mm (approx) mortars. There were two versions: the Somua MCG was used with two rows of 8 tubes (total 16 mortar tubes) and the Somua MCL, which had a stronger chassis and motor, was used for the heavier load of two rows of 10 tubes (total of 20 tubes). The lighter Reihenwerfers (MCG chassis, 16 tubes) were included in the Panzergrenadier-Regiments while the heavier (MCL chassis, 20 tubes) were used to equip the 10./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 (if I recall correctly). It is very frequently and incorrectly published that these Reihenwerfers in 10./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 were Raketenwerfers, but the Gliederungen and other primary sources clearly do not support this but, rather, contradict it.

As far as the various support vehicles that were created on the Renault UE and Lorraine chassis, I don't think we will ever find out for sure any absolute numbers, but I know that Niels Henkemans is working on the UE Wurfrahmen mystery. I though I had solved it for him but it turns out that I did not read the report correctly and it turns out that it was referring to Renault UEs towing Werfers rather than having them mounted directly onto the vehicle. Sigh.

jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 25 Dec 2014 10:45

Found this maybe it's of some help ?? Regards Jos
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rossmcpharter
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by rossmcpharter » 25 Dec 2014 17:59

Great information everybody! Were there in fact any French halftrack raketenwerfers (vielfachwerfers) in the other units of the 21. Panzer Division at this time? Or were they just in the stug abteilung 200?

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 25 Dec 2014 20:57

jopaerya wrote:Found this maybe it's of some help ?? Regards Jos
Jos,

The Gliederung looks like one for a support unit (« Anhalt »), not a unit armed with Nebelwerfer. :?

Emmanuel

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Leo Niehorster » 26 Dec 2014 10:37

« Anhalt » used in the sense of this diagram indicates an approximate basis for the organization. So any organizations in the field based on this diagram would not have to be exactly as it appears on paper.
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schwarzermai
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by schwarzermai » 26 Dec 2014 10:45

Hi

i think the gliederung shows mot.Z.-Werfer (towed by 9 x Cheniletten) not Sfl.
the werfer are on trailers

uwe
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=223633

My Bookproject: "Organisationsgeschichte der deutschen Heeresartillerie im II. Weltkrieg"

http://balsi.de/Heeresartillerie/

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 26 Dec 2014 20:17

Thank you Leo and uwe.

For information, this Gliederung does not correspond to a Zug (nor to the whole Battery) of a 28/32 cm schwere Stellungs-Werfer-Batterie (KtSN 645 of November 1943) which had « französiche beute Zugkraftwagen » (i.e. Chenilletten) towing the 28/32 NbW 41 on trailers.

Emmanuel

Sam Wren
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Sam Wren » 27 Dec 2014 06:45

Ross,

I can't say whether or not Raketenwerfer/Vielfachwerfer (on Somua MCL chassis) were included in any other component of 21.PD (or in any other Division) - I have only been able to confirm the Zug attached to St./StuG-Abt. 200. I think that much of the confusion regarding their supposed inclusion in Art.Abt. 155 has to do with confusing the Reihenwerfer symbol on the Gliederung, thinking that it is for Raketenwerfer. Furthermore, there seems to be an extremely basic, widespread (and difficult for me to understand) misunderstanding of exactly what the Reihenwerfer and the Raketenwerfer were, which continues to be propagated in the most recent work related to the 21.PD (the English translation of Kortenhaus' history of the 21.PD) in which the Reihenwerfer is described - and I must make clear that I am going from memory since the book is at home - in terms that related to rockets or missles. The Reihenwerfer is simply a number of mortar tubes that were bound together in two rows of 8 or 10 that was capable of firing mortar rounds in salvos rather than singly. The Reihenwefer's weapon system was no more a "rocket" based system than any other type of conventional mortar. I will correct this if needed once I get home and can re-read the offending section of the book.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Leo Niehorster » 27 Dec 2014 10:31

Well, if you go by Wiki, the fact that is most often published is the true one. :roll:
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rossmcpharter
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by rossmcpharter » 29 Dec 2014 00:22

Thanks Sam, for the reply, I understand the Reihenwerfer to be the rows of converted French Brandt? 8cm mortars. I'll have to check my English translation of Kortenhaus now. It's a shame Ian Daglish is no longer with us.

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 Dec 2014 11:11

rossmcpharter wrote:Thanks Sam, for the reply, I understand the Reihenwerfer to be the rows of converted French Brandt? 8cm mortars. I'll have to check my English translation of Kortenhaus now. It's a shame Ian Daglish is no longer with us.

You are correct, they were rows of captured French mortars, you'd be better checking Perigault's History of the 21 PD than Kortenhaus, Kortenhaus whose book is just a history of the fighting in Normandy with a very superficial account of 21 PD attached, I was very disappointed in it when I got the English edition. In Kortenhaus there are several inconsistencies between the text and the Appendices which can be very confusing.
Appendix B in Kortenhaus is the 1st June return chart and this uses the same tactical symbol for the Reihenwerfer in the two Panzergrenadier Regiments as it does for 10./PAR 155 (2 launchers), however the chart does have a written explanation for the Panzergrenadier's equipment while in the PAR 155 section there is no such explanation . The section for StuG Abt 200 doesn't have anything about the Werfer supposed to have been in the HQ either.
Appendix C is a textual listing of the equipment held by the Division's units and in this Kortenhaus describes the equipment of 10./PAR 155 as " 2 Unic P107(f) multiple-rocket launchers".
Alan

rossmcpharter
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by rossmcpharter » 29 Dec 2014 19:08

Thanks Sam and Alan, for this useful information, so the only certain info for the Vielfachwerfer/Raketenwerfer we have, is that the StuG. Abt. 200 had a zug.

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Sam Wren » 01 Jan 2015 04:50

I thought I had posted some additional info here a few days ago but I must have not saved it. I have some additional info on the Reihenwerfers and the Raketenwerfer/Vielfachwerfers that I will be posting in this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... r#p1595426

because it is, obviously, a more appropriate thread for it. Included is the translation of the sections from Spielberger's book on Beute vehicles.

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