Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

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RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#121

Post by RichTO90 » 18 Sep 2014, 04:48

Manuferey wrote:I'm going back to the excerpt below of the Bauprogramme of June 1st, 1944 posted by Jos in July 2011
Exactly, which is why I thought the change had to be "last minute".
- it is still called "Graf Waldersee".
I suspect by that time the reference was not to the battery, but rather to the position occupied. Like "Brasilia" and "Water Tower".

11. Batterie stayed there with its Sfl. so was still "Graf Waldersee", while 10. Batterie moved and no longer got a name. :lol:

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bunker14
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#122

Post by bunker14 » 18 Sep 2014, 09:40

Manuferey wrote:I'm going back to the excerpt below of the Bauprogramme of June 1st, 1944 posted by Jos in July 2011
(see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1611239)
as the information about 10./1716 is confusing based on what we're discussing:
- its position is written as "4 km nord-osw Bayeux" which I understand to mean "nord-ostwärts Bayeux" ie. northeast of Bayeux. Note that Formigny is located instead at about 15 km northwest of Bayeux.
- it is still called "Graf Waldersee".
Emmanuel
Bonjour Emmanuel

Hi

the 10./1716 (3x15cm sFH 1.13) " Graf Waldersee "( was located in 1943 east of Bayeux, in Sommervieu, and move to Formigny in March 1944 with 15,5 (414f)
German forget to indicate the new position at formigny and put of the name Graf Waldersee ?

Ben


Artee
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#123

Post by Artee » 18 Sep 2014, 14:21

Folks,

Now it's my turn to go back to the excerpt from the Bauprogramme - allegedly dated June 1st, 1944 ... just where is the date on this document?????

I believe the date is very wrong! Take note, the Bauprogramme also refers to...

5./1716 being 3km west of Asnelles (WN41) - on 06Jun44 it was at Crepon (WN36a) - about 4km south east of Asnelles.

7./1716 being 3km north of Bayeux (WN50) - on 06Jun44 it was roughly 18km east north east of Bayeux at Beny Sur Mer (WN28a)

The Bauprogramme excerpt probably pre-dates the arrival of the 352nd!!!!!

Last minute change - Ba humbug :wink:

Artee

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#124

Post by Rui » 18 Sep 2014, 14:46

Artee wrote:Folks,

Now it's my turn to go back to the excerpt from the Bauprogramme - allegedly dated June 1st, 1944 ... just where is the date on this document?????

I believe the date is very wrong! Take note, the Bauprogramme also refers to...

5./1716 being 3km west of Asnelles (WN41) - on 06Jun44 it was at Crepon (WN36a) - about 4km south east of Asnelles.

7./1716 being 3km north of Bayeux (WN50) - on 06Jun44 it was roughly 18km east north east of Bayeux at Beny Sur Mer (WN28a)

The Bauprogramme excerpt probably pre-dates the arrival of the 352nd!!!!!

Last minute change - Ba humbug :wink:

Artee

Maybe Jos or Martin Block could bring some light in this matter. :milwink:
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Artee
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#125

Post by Artee » 18 Sep 2014, 15:42

Folks,

But wait there's more...a small snippet of info that might provide a more accurate date for the Bauprogramme...

7./1716 was apparently located 3km North of Bayeux - which was WN50 at Vaux Sur Aure. According to an Allied Intelligence report of 31May44, with specific regard to the status of German Batteries: "Vaux Sur Aure... “No trace of original guns since 20 April 44"

Which clearly suggests that 7./1716, for example, had moved long before 01June. Why would 5./1716 & 7./1716 of the 716th Infantry Division have still been located in KVA Bayeux more than two months after the 352nd had moved in??? Do we actually believe that some time between sunrise on 01Jun44 and nightfall 05Jun44 the 716th suddenly moved 5./1716 & 7./1716 eastwards, and 10./1716 westwards???

Meanwhile, 3./1716 is shown on the Bauprogramme yet to have it's 7.5cm guns replaced by 10cm leFH 14-19(t). However the 01May44 Kriegsgleiderung shows that 4./1716 already has them. That is the Bauprogramme was issued before 01May44.

And of course....the literal translation of Bauprogamme is Construction Program. That is, it's projected information. This Bauprogramme being used as 'evidence' is NOT a 01Jun44 status report of Batteries of the 716th. It was almost certainly issued in early 1944 as a plan of what was to be completed later in KVA Calvados. KVA Calvados being the 90km long stretch of coast being defended by 716 Infantry Division. However as of 16Mar44 this Bauprogramme became irrelevant, as KVA Calvados was split into KVA Caen & KVA Bayeux, with the 352nd taking over the latter area.

As for the name "Graf Waldersee" it's really not that hard to grasp guys.

"Graf Waldersee" was the name of an independent Self Propelled Battery in 1943. On 19Dec43 "Graf Waldersee" was formally incorporated into the 716th, whereupon the Battery also acquired a number - that is 10./1716. By 01Mar1944 "Graf Waldersee" aka 10./1716 had been re-equipped with towed 15.5cm Howitzers - it was at Sommervieu. In early April a new Self Propelled Battery was created - it was again given the name "Graf Waldersee" - it was also given a number, being 11./1716. However the new SP Battery wasn't operational until May - at Plumetot. Meanwhile 10./1716 with it's towed howitzers, having lost it's name had been redeployed to the La Londel area.

Artee
Last edited by Artee on 19 Sep 2014, 11:38, edited 2 times in total.

jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#126

Post by jopaerya » 19 Sep 2014, 09:45

Here the complete document , Regards Jos
Attachments
axis 05.JPG

Artee
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#127

Post by Artee » 19 Sep 2014, 11:35

Jos,

Thanks for posting the full page. As I thought, it's a building program and not a status report. What's more, it's a building program with a projected completion date of 01Jun44. As we know now much of this rather ambitious was never completed.

Artee

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#128

Post by jopaerya » 19 Sep 2014, 21:58

Hello Artee

I don't agree with you , two points

The report is not only a building report , please note the first line 7 Army - Gen-Kdo LXXXXIV

In a report from 23-06-1944 about the troops of the 716 I.D. ( H.Gr.B. ) on D-Day , the 10./1716
is also called Graf Waldersee .

B.T.W. please use some original documents to convince me .

Regards Jos

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#129

Post by Artee » 20 Sep 2014, 01:32

Jos,

What is so significant about the first line? 716 Infantry Division was indeed part of LXXXIV Army Corps of the Seventh Army. So what?

Yep the confusion over the name "Graf Waldersee" has apparently been perpetuated for 70 years! As I've explained several times "Graf Waldersee" was for some months back in 1944 also known as 10./1716. The creation of 11./1716 came a short time before the invasion. By 23Jun44 much of the 716th had been destroyed. Only two of it's gun batteries were still in action ie. 1./1716 and 11./1716 aka Graf Waldersee". In today's world of digital technology it's hard to understand that back in 1944 they were endlessly shuffling paper work. In the wake of the invasion there's little wonder that there was some confusion over one particular Battery that had been renumbered and renamed on several occasions. The confusion back in 1944 is the basis of the confusion now.

Are you still denying the existence of 10./1716 and 11./1716? Or perhaps Gefreiter Paul Thiel and Soldat Ignaz Schiefelbain were lying when the were interrogated? Hey that's from an original document entitled WO 208/3645, PWIS(H)/LDC/16 (of 21 June 1944) - thanks to Mr Trew at Sandhurst for posting it on this thread!.

As for original German documents I don't have direct access to the German Archives (it's a very long drive :D ). However to start with take a look at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 1716-R.htm for another small bit of evidence that I'm using.

And the Bauprogramme is not a "building report" it's a building plan. And I can demolish the theory that it's something more if you like...

Lets start with 1./1260 at Riva Bella - just how many bunkers had been completed by 01Jun44 - answer: NIL. In fact the guns weren't even there on 01June. The US IX Bomber Command & RAF Bomber Command had significantly impaired the building program that had commenced months before ie. soon after the Bauprogamme was issued. The guns were at a "wechselstellung" ie. alternate position in the wooded area north of St Aubin d'Arquenay. In fact the exact position of 1./1260 was Grid Reference 094778 (from 25,00 scale Allied Maps) - that info comes from an original document called the War Diary of No 6 Commando (WO 218/68). There's lots more, but I wont continue.

Thanks again Jos for providing the full Bauprogramme page. However you (and others) have long since decided this document has some other significance, and are not willing to change your minds. Hence this has turned into a circular argument. I'm not interested in debating this particular confusion any further. Thanks for your response anyway.

RichTO90 - exactly as I thought (and as you know), the "last minute" shuffling started on 16Mar44 :wink:

bunker14 - Très beau travail, continuez comme ça :)

Regards
Artee

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schwarzermai
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#130

Post by schwarzermai » 20 Sep 2014, 08:04

hello

"Graf Waldersee" was a Geräte-Batterie - just weapons, no personal

at the end of 1943 a reorganization of the artillery was performed and i was tried to give the artillery-chaos a rule. so "Graf Waldersee" were 10./1716. Because a infanterie-division had no mot. or sfl.battery by K.St.N. the 10./1716 was equippted as part of schwere Abteilung with s.F.H. 414 (f) and personal, "Graf Waldersee" was sent back in arsenal. (10./1716 lost his name) - at the time the danger of invasion was more than real it was tried to created the Geräte-Batterie - "Graf Waldersee" with personal, so this battery as 11./1716 was in training at the beginning of invasion.

Uwe
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=223633

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#131

Post by jopaerya » 20 Sep 2014, 09:35

Hello Artee

I agree there were two battery's , but I disagree with the unit 11./1716 and there name Graf Waldersee

(1) In all my research in German documents about D-Day , I have never found any evidence of the name or unit 11./1716

(2) In all original documentation from that time the name Graf Waldersee was placed by 10./1716 and not 11./1716

(3) On 6-6-1944 on 23:00 the 10./1716 ( Graf Waldersee ) and 2./s.A.A.989 each had only three guns ready to fire .

I also agree that we can an may disagree , we all have our own views .

Regards Jos

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schwarzermai
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#132

Post by schwarzermai » 20 Sep 2014, 10:05

hello - just a indication

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm

Feldpostnummer 09 664 W (Sammelfeldpostnummer) (assigned 13.6.1944) = 11./Art.Rgt. 1716

Uwe
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#133

Post by jopaerya » 20 Sep 2014, 11:07

Thanks Uwe

This may be wishful thinking , but the date of the Feldpostnumber could indicate the 11./1716
was formed after D-Day . That could explain why there is no documentation before and during D-Day ??

Regards Jos

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#134

Post by schwarzermai » 20 Sep 2014, 13:12

hello Jos,

the FPN was assigned at June 13th 1944
i.m.o. - that means the battery was formed around maybe 7-10 days before the FPN was assigned ....
(after creation the FPN were requested and then promptly assigned)

and i think, that a sammelfeldpostnummer were used, means, that the battery was not in the direct area of the division

please see the scan (thanks to Matthias at FdW!)

Image

please check FPN 09 664 V - gestrichen 25.1.1944
-> gepanzerte Geräte-Batterie 716 = i think its "Graf Waldersee"

uwe
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=223633

My Bookproject: "Organisationsgeschichte der deutschen Heeresartillerie im II. Weltkrieg"

http://balsi.de/Heeresartillerie/

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#135

Post by Rui » 20 Sep 2014, 17:51

schwarzermai wrote:hello Jos,

the FPN was assigned at June 13th 1944
i.m.o. - that means the battery was formed around maybe 7-10 days before the FPN was assigned ....
(after creation the FPN were requested and then promptly assigned)

and i think, that a sammelfeldpostnummer were used, means, that the battery was not in the direct area of the division

please see the scan (thanks to Matthias at FdW!)

Image

please check FPN 09 664 V - gestrichen 25.1.1944
-> gepanzerte Geräte-Batterie 716 = i think its "Graf Waldersee"

uwe

Uwe, using your image, it means between 25.1.1944 and 13.6.1944, the gepanzerte Geräte-Batterie 716 and after, the 11./AR 1716, this unit, had no FPN assigned to them.
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T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
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