Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 14 Jul 2011 21:35

Manuferey wrote: A lot of research has been done on the German coastal batteries in Normandy in the last few years. For the most recent information, I encouraged you to acquire the 2011 book “Mur de l’Atlantique – Les batteries de côte en Normandie” (“Atlantikwall – The coastal batteries in Normandy”) by Alain Chazette. The main text is in French but the captions of the pictures are translated in English. You will find detailed maps of the batteries as well as positions, pictures and details of the armament including light Flak, field guns used for close defense and sometimes long range guns for firing illuminating shells (called “Leuchtgeschuetz” by the Germans).
Hi Emmanuel, you make me, very curious about this book! :D
By way, aren't you, one of the authors? 8O Any special discount?! :milsmile:

From: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1591565
jopaerya wrote:Hello

For all bunker- and artilleriefans a great book to have in your libery . Nice to see
the differnce between his book 1944 : Le mur de l'Atlantique from Edition Heimdal
78 pages and the new book now full of great information, photo's and exellent drawings .

name of the book : Mur de l'Atlantique - Les batteries de côte de Normandie . 1939 - 1944
authors : Alain Chazette and Emmanuel Férey english translation by the pictures
contens : all batteries M.K.B. and H.K.B. from Le Havre to Granville
cover : softcover
contents pages : very fine plans of every batteries with all there bunkers and guns used
language : French and English
pages : 272
size : A 4
weight : 1.2 kg
additional infos : Also a part of all radarpost in the same area
price : 35.00 Euro
ISBN : 978-2-915767-46-9
order : http://www.histoire-fortifications.com/index.asp

Regards Jos
Image

This book is a photo book? (I only saw the cover. There isn't any sample pages of interior in Amazon.fr nor in the publisher website). I like read text besides photo captions and see pictures. The book have information about the all units and the equipment they had, "big and small guns"?
Any other similar recommendation about Coastal Artillery in Atlantik Wall and/or Süd Wall?

I saw these books on the same publisher website: (any comment?)
Alain Chazette et al - "ATLANTIKWALL Mythe ou Réalité. Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette & Pierre Gimenez - "Südwall les batteries côtières de Marine". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette - "L'ARMEE ALLEMANDE SUR LA COTE MEDITERRANEENNE AOK 19". Editions Histoire et Fortifications

"Photo books"
Thierry Paradis - "Le Touquet 1940-1944". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Laurent Violard & Matthieu Rivart -"Hardelot 1940-1944". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette - "Vision du Mur de l'Atlantique en Normandie". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette - "Noirmoutier sous l'occupation allemande". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette - "Le Fort de l'Eve". Editions Histoire et Fortifications
Alain Chazette - "A la découverte des fortifications de l'île de Groix". Editions Histoire et Fortifications



Regards
Rui Esteves

(My edit: deleted the repeated books)
Last edited by Rui on 14 Jul 2011 21:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 14 Jul 2011 21:43

Alanmccoubrey wrote:Wasn't 10./AR 1716 equipped with the 15cm sFH13 auf Lorraine Schlepper anyway ? Certainly that is what Lt Rudolf Schaaf the battery commander says in Hasting's "Overlord".

Hi Alan, the SP Battery wasn't the "11./A.R. 1716"? An unofficial battery? As explained by the marvelous data from Martin Block in the following post:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=169605
Martin Block wrote:From what is recorded Emmanuel is correct! The 10./Art.Rgt. 1716 was formed upon an order of OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. dated 19.12.1943 by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" with its three 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1). But in the same order it was stated that it was already planned to convert the battery to four towed 15.5 cm sFH414(f) guns. Indeed the monthly strength reports of the 716. Inf.Div. then show the 10./1716 with 3 s/p guns until 1.2.1944 but by 1.3.1944 they had been replaced by 4 towed French 15.5 cm guns. Can't tell what had happened to the 3 s/p guns but it doesn't look like they went to the Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 of the 21. Pz.Div. because (unless kept in reserve) their figures show no increase during the spring of 1944.

Could be that the three 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1) once again formed an independent battery and remained in the 716. Inf.Div.'s sector. At least - if I remember it correctly - in some other Normandy books Mr. Schaaf's battery was once again referred to under its former name 'Graf Waldersee'.

In limited instances, when there was some surplus weaponry and personnel available, divisions/corps/armies 'unofficially' formed company and even battalion sized extra units upon their own initiative (= auf dem Kommandowege). Usually not much later it was tried to make such units 'official' by asking the top brass at OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. for permission in order to become able to officially claim supplies, spare parts etc. for such units. This was called 'Etatisierung', i.e. a unit formed 'auf dem Kommandowege' finally became officially recognized as part of the army). This could have happened with Mr. Schaaf's battery too, but unfortunately so far this is only speculation on my part which I am unable to verify with any documents.

Just my 2 Cents

Martin Block
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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 15 Jul 2011 00:01

Rui wrote:This book is a photo book? (I only saw the cover. There isn't any sample pages of interior in Amazon.fr nor in the publisher website). I like read text besides photo captions and see pictures. The book have information about the all units and the equipment they had, "big and small guns"?
Any other similar recommendation about Coastal Artillery in Atlantik Wall and/or Süd Wall?
[...]
Riu,

The "Batteries de côte en Normandie" book contains a lot of pictures, a lot of text, the maps of every coastal battery presented in it (including detail of the primary and secondary armament) as well as US aerial pictures and excerpts of German Gliederungen. Alain Chazette received the help of many of his "bunkerfriends" to achieve the most up-to-date book on coastal batteries in Normandy.

"ATLANTIKWALL Mythe ou Réalité" will give you the latest data available today on German coastal strongpoints along the Atlantikwall in France. There are a lot of pictures and a lot of text (in French).

"Vision du Mur de l'Atlantique en Normandie" is a photo book.

I don't know the other books as I concentrate mainly on the Atlantikwall in Normandy.

If you speak some French, you can join http://atlantikwall.superforum.fr/forum and http://sudwall.superforum.fr/index.htm

Emmanuel

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Clive Mortimore » 15 Jul 2011 06:59

Manuferey wrote:
If you speak some French, you can join http://atlantikwall.superforum.fr/forum and http://sudwall.superforum.fr/index.htm

Emmanuel
If you do not speak French Google Translate helps, well it does me :)
Clive

jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 17 Jul 2011 12:38

Hello All

I agree the 10./1716 had on 01-06-1944 - 4 x 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) with the name ( Graf Waldersee )

Regards Jos
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 17 Jul 2011 15:14

RichTO90 wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:
Rui wrote: Do know where were the 8./A.R. 1716?
I'll have to check.

Cheers!
III./Art.-Regt. 1716 (- 10. Bttr.)
Gefechtsstand – Le Cambe
8. Bttr. – Maisy La Martiniere (Wn 84) (four 10cm le.F.H. 14/19 (t))
9. Bttr. – Maisy Les Perruques (Wn 83) (four 15cm s.F.H. 414 (f)) - notice I made the correction :D

It was attached to 352. Infanterie Division along with Grenadier Regiment 726 and Ost Batallion 439.

Cheers!
Thanks, the 8./A.R.1716 was the missing piece. :milwink:
I was thinking that it was probably a simple typo, because usually each artillery battery in the Infanterie-Divisionen received 4 x French howitzer.

Rui
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 17 Jul 2011 15:20

Hi Jos

What is "7./1716 (Resi)", that appears on your image? Could "Resi" be the name of the battery commander?

"4-7,5 cm F.K.16 n.A. Umbewaffn in le.F.H. 14/19(t) geplant" means that the 4 x 7,5 cm F.K.16 n.A. were a substitute for the 10 cm le.F.H. 14/19(t) planned?


Regards,
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 17 Jul 2011 15:32

Hello Rui

Looks logical all "light" batterie's one type of ammo .

I think they are nicknames or placenames
10./1716 ( Graf Waldersee )
7./ 1716 ( Resi or Resy )
9./1716 ( Maisy )
8./1716 ( Basilia )

Regards Jos

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 17 Jul 2011 18:45

Hi Jos

Do you know a credible book that specifies the type and number of artillery pieces used by the land forces of Wehrmacht in Normandy at June 1944, by each artillery battery and their location? The Zetterling's book, mentions the number, caliber and sometimes the origin of the guns in the units. He uses expressions, like Czechoslovakian 10 cm howitzers or like French ... (see below)
Rui wrote:Some interesting data from Zetterling's book...

In Infanterie-Divisionen:
4 x French 10 cm howitzers ...... (1 x Battery x 4 piece each) ....... (343. ID)
28 x French 10.5 cm howitzers ... (7 x Batteries x 4 pieces each) ... (346. ID; 708. ID)
12 x French 10.5 cm guns ......... (3 x Batteries x 4 pieces each) ... (709. ID)
68 x French 15.5 cm howitzers ... (17 x Batteries x 4 pieces each) .. (331. ID; 343. ID; 709. ID; 711. ID; 716. ID)

Total = 112 French artillery pieces in Infanterie-Divisionen.

The French 10 cm howitzers are French 10.5 cm howitzers? (Perhaps a Zetterling typo?)


Regards,
Rui Esteves
I'm trying to clarify the Zetterling's entries about the artillery, for example, I found the composition of the A.R. 1716/716. I.D. was the following:

7.5 cm F.K. 16 n.A. = 4 (3./)
10 cm le.F.H. 14/19(t) = 24 (1./; 2./; 5./; 6./; 7./; 8./) (4 in each battery)
15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1) = 3 ("11./")
15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) = 12 (4./; 9./; 10./) (4 in each battery)


Regards
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 17 Jul 2011 19:19

(Teaser question: What was the foreign country that "provided" more artillery pieces used by land forces of the Wehrmacht in Normandy during the summer 1944? Not including FlaK, Pak or IG.)

a) Russia
b) Holland (The Netherlands)
c) France
d) Belgium
e) Czechoslovakia
f) Other (for example: Poland; Norway; Denmark; UK; Yugoslavia; Greece; Italy)


Hint: It wasn't USA.

Regards
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 17 Jul 2011 19:45

Hi Riu,

I’ll answer for Jos. :wink:
Rui wrote:Hi Jos
What is "7./1716 (Resi)", that appears on your image? Could "Resi" be the name of the battery commander?
"4-7,5 cm F.K.16 n.A. Umbewaffn in le.F.H. 14/19(t) geplant" means that the 4 x 7,5 cm F.K.16 n.A. were a substitute for the 10 cm le.F.H. 14/19(t) planned?
Regards,
Rui
“Resi” was the name of the batterie. You’ll find that other batteries of AR 1716 had names as well e.g. “Brasilia” for one of the batteries at Maisy.
Guns were changed a lot in artillery regiments in late 1943-early 1944. Calibers were increased as much as possible, thus, 7.5 cm were replaced by 10 cm in many batteries and not only in the AR 1716.
Rui wrote:Hi Jos
Do you know a credible book that specifies the type and number of artillery pieces used by the land forces of Wehrmacht in Normandy at June 1944, by each artillery battery and their location? The Zetterling's book, mentions the number, caliber and sometimes the origin of the guns in the units. He uses expressions, like Czechoslovakian 10 cm howitzers or like French ... (see below)
There is no single book that will give you all the answers. However, you will find many inputs in “Atlantikwall: Mythe ou Réalité” by Alain Chazette but not all artillery batteries (particularly motorized artillery units) in Normandy are listed in there. So, you will have to do your own research. There is still a lot to discover, including on the ground ! That's the fun part. 8-)

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 18 Jul 2011 09:09

Thanks Emmanuel

I can't find any 10./1716 in my documents on 06-06-1944 , just as Martin Block I think the S.P. gun were used as
Bodenständige Waffen ( that are weapons that were to remain in a sector even when the division changed )

Regards Jos

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 18 Jul 2011 23:23

jopaerya wrote: I can't find any 10./1716 in my documents on 06-06-1944 , just as Martin Block I think the S.P. gun were used as
Bodenständige Waffen ( that are weapons that were to remain in a sector even when the division changed )

Regards Jos
10./1716 appears for instance in General Richter's debriefing to the US Historical Section: FMS B-621 " The Battle of the 716th Infantry Division in Normandy (6 to 23 June 1944)". Richer mentions that this battery was still armed with its 3 self-propelled 15 cm on D-Day. He also describes in detail the organization of the artillery in his sector prior to June 6, 1944. 10./1716 was part of the "Center Group" (not the actual code name) and tactically attached to H.A.A. 989 (cf. p.35 of the US document) which was subordinated to the Artillery commander of the 716 ID, in fact the CO of AR 1716.

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 19 Jul 2011 11:52

Hello Emmanuel

I would rather trust original documents from 1944 then a debriefing from after the war ( in a prisioncamp without documents )
but I will try to figger out were the 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1) went .

Regards Jos

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 19 Jul 2011 15:19

Jos, whether you can find documentary proof or not Schaaf knows what he was doing on D-Day and what he was commanding. It would take quite a feat of self delusion for his memory to change immobile heavy guns into fairly mobile SP Guns.
Alan

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