Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 19 Jul 2011 16:18

Yes , you are right . Recieved some new documents from early 1944 with the
6 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1)
only named Graf Waldersee , looks no battery of the 1716 , please note the other
artillerie batterie's of the 1716 and other units on the map .

Regards Jos
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 19 Jul 2011 21:01

Nice, Mr. Jos, you bring more questions! :lol:


In the following quoted text from Martin Block, Martin states that:
- until 1.2.1944: 10./A.R. 1716 with 3 SP guns
- 1.3.1944: 10./A.R. 1716 with 4 towed French 15.5 cm guns

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=169605

Martin Block wrote:From what is recorded Emmanuel is correct! The 10./Art.Rgt. 1716 was formed upon an order of OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. dated 19.12.1943 by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" with its three 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1). But in the same order it was stated that it was already planned to convert the battery to four towed 15.5 cm sFH414(f) guns. Indeed the monthly strength reports of the 716. Inf.Div. then show the 10./1716 with 3 s/p guns until 1.2.1944 but by 1.3.1944 they had been replaced by 4 towed French 15.5 cm guns.
...


So, probably, this map that you say is from "early 1944", is:
a) before 1.2.1944, when the "Graf Waldersee" batterie was independent. (1943?), or
b) after 1.2.1944, because the 716. ID didn't show the SP guns of the "Graf Waldersee" and "Graf Waldersee" was a independent battery tactical attached to the 716. I.D. after the replacing of the 10/A.R. 1716 with the 4 towed 15.5 cm sFH 414(f) howitzers.


Regards,
Rui
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 19 Jul 2011 22:41

Another matches near the dynamite, were: :milsmile:
jopaerya wrote:Hello All

I agree the 10./1716 had on 01-06-1944 - 4 x 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) with the name ( Graf Waldersee )

Regards Jos
Image

If the III./A.R. 1716 were detached to the 352. I.D., the composing batteries (8./; 9./ and 10./) would be west of the position shown on the map?

8./A.R. 1716 = 4 x 10 cm le.F.H. 14/19(t) - Maisy La Martiniere (Wn 84)
9./A.R. 1716 = 4 x 15,5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) - Maisy Les Perruques (Wn 83)
10./A.R. 1716 = 4 x 15,5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) - N.E. Bayeux

The A.R. 1716 were divided the between the following "beaches":
I./ A.R. 1716 = "Sword beach"
II./A.R. 1716 = "Juno beach"
III./A.R. 1716 = "Utah-Omaha-Gold beach"


The map shows the "Juno" beach...

In the map appears:
"Graf Waldersee" (tracked howitzer battery) = 6 x 15 cm SP howitzers
This is the first time, I saw this number of SP guns on the "Graf Waldersee" battery.

So probably the 10./A.R. 1716 and "Graf Waldersee" battery were two different units, the 10./A.R. 1716 in 352. I.D. area with 4 x 15,5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) and the "Graf Waldersee" battery with 3 (or 6) x 15 cm s.F.H. 13 (Sfl) auf Lorraine Schlepper supporting the 716. I.D..


2./155 (towed howitzer battery) = 4 x Russian 12,2 cm howitzers
3./155 (towed howitzer battery) = 4 x Russian 12,2 cm howitzers

In Zetterling's Normandy 1944 book, shows:
1./P.A.R. 155 = 4 x 12.2 cm howitzers (captured Russian)
2./P.A.R. 155 = 4 x 12.2 cm howitzers (captured Russian)
3./P.A.R. 155 = 4 x 10 cm K 18
Any comments, about the the I./P.A.R. 155 batteries?

(By the way, Jos, very good map, where can I get one? Or similar ones?) :milwink:


Regards,
Rui
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jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 20 Jul 2011 08:54

Hello Rui

It's a pity that the map has no exact date , but I can see it on the H.K.B. numbering that it must be early 1944 .
The map is from the BaMa Freiburg ( R.H. 32/v 38 ) BTW the 1./155 has on this map 3 x 10 cm guns .

I think that your option B is the most logical , that there were two seperate batterie's the 10./1716 near Bayeux
and the S.P. guns east of Douvres . Does Schaaf gives any information on the position and the number of guns ??

Regards Jos

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 20 Jul 2011 19:14

Rui wrote: ....
The A.R. 1716 were divided the between the following "beaches":
I./ A.R. 1716 = "Sword beach"
II./A.R. 1716 = "Juno beach"
III./A.R. 1716 = "Utah-Omaha-Gold beach"


The map shows the "Juno" beach...
.....

Mea culpa :oops:
I compare the A.R. 1716 batteries locations, too fast. After a more calm analysis, it will be:
The A.R. 1716 were divided the between the following "beaches":
I./ A.R. 1716 = "Sword Beach" and British 6th Airborne Division landing zone
II./A.R. 1716 = "Gold Beach" and "Juno Beach"
III./A.R. 1716 = "Omaha Beach" and "Gold Beach"

About the map, it shows the "Juno Beach" (Luc sur-Mer) and "Green" area/"Queen" sector/"Sword Beach" (the area, where was Lion-sur-Mer).


Regards,
Rui
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 20 Jul 2011 20:44

Hi Jos

From Martin Block....

Topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1504656
Martin Block wrote: From what is recorded Emmanuel is correct! The 10./Art.Rgt. 1716 was formed upon an order of OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. dated 19.12.1943 by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" with its three 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1). But in the same order it was stated that it was already planned to convert the battery to four towed 15.5 cm sFH414(f) guns. Indeed the monthly strength reports of the 716. Inf.Div. then show the 10./1716 with 3 s/p guns until 1.2.1944 but by 1.3.1944 they had been replaced by 4 towed French 15.5 cm guns. Can't tell what had happened to the 3 s/p guns but it doesn't look like they went to the Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 of the 21. Pz.Div. because (unless kept in reserve) their figures show no increase during the spring of 1944.

Could be that the three 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1) once again formed an independent battery and remained in the 716. Inf.Div.'s sector. At least - if I remember it correctly - in some other Normandy books Mr. Schaaf's battery was once again referred to under its former name 'Graf Waldersee'.
...

Topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1512746
Martin Block wrote:Richard,

I can only guess the battery might have been named after this guy:
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/waldersee.htm

On the same day (19.12.1943) the 8./Art.Rgt. 1709 was formed by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Reichenau" (probably named after this guy http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Per ... herv-R.htm ) also with 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz. 135/1).

And like the 10./1716 the 8./1709 was also already at the same time earmarked for conversion to four towed 15.5 cm sFH414(f) guns. Indeed the monthly strength reports of the 709. Inf.Div. then show the 8./1709 with 15 cm s/p guns on 1.1.1944 but already by 1.2.1944 they had disappeared. Can't tell what happened to them.
...

Note the similarities:
formed upon an order of OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. dated 19.12.1943:
10./A.R. 1716 - by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
8./A.R. 1709 - by renaming the former independent "Gerätebatterie Reichenau" with 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)

In the same order, was planned to convert both battery to 4 x 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) (towed howitzers).

The last appearance of the 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) on the divisional monthly strength reports was:
10./A.R. 1716 = 1.2.1944
8./A.R. 1709 = 1.1.1944

After that, their fate is unknown...


The first appearance of the 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) on the divisional monthly strength reports was:
10./A.R. 1716 = 1.3.1944
8./A.R. 1709 = 1.2.1944 ???


In Zetterling's "Normandy 1944" (divisional monthly strength reports from 1.5.1944):
10./A.R. 1716 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (1)
8./A.R. 1709 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (2)

(1) Gliederung der 716. I.D., Stand 1.5.44, T312, R1566, F000215
(2) Gliederung der 709. I.D., Stand 1.5.44, T312, R1566, F000217


And finally...

Topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1513676
Manuferey wrote: ...

An 84 A.K.'s document of November 1943 that describes the exchange of guns in the 709 and 716 ID includes some caveats for the actual exchange of guns. In particular for the exchange of 15 cm sFH13(Sfl) for 15,5 cm sFH414(f) for the Graf Waldersee” [716. ID] and Reichenau [709. ID] batteries, the Korps pleads AOK 7 to be able to keep the 15 cm sFH13(Sfl) guns as it would otherwise remove the only available motorized units of the area. In the 709 ID sector, the 84. AK received two motorized artillery units (456. and 457. Art. Abt. (mtz.)) and thus, had to relinquish the self-propelled guns of batterie Reichenau. AFAIK there was no a similar transfer of motorized artillery units in the 716. ID’s sector. Therefore, it looks like AOK 7 was compelled to leave the self-propelled guns to the 10./1716.

Emmanuel
So probably, your map is from after 1.2.1944 (last recorded date of SP guns in 716. I.D).

I'm starting to think about the possibility of SP battery of 716. I.D. became again independent after 1.2.1944 and receiving the also disappeared SP guns of 709. I.D., that probably also became independent after 1.1.1944. This could explain the 6 x 15 cm SP howitzers on your map, 3 x SPG from the former 10./A.R. 1716 and 3 x SPG the former 8./A.R. 1709.



Regards,
Rui
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Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 20 Jul 2011 21:14

Hi Jos
About your question of the location of "Graf Waldersee"...

A great conribuition from Sam Wren!!!! :milsmile:

Topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=169605
Sam Wren wrote:Martin,

this may not be the book you were thinking of, but Hubert Meyer refers to this batterie on Pg 72 of Kriegsgeschichte der 12.SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" erste Band:

...

The same text is found on Pg. 129 of the Stackpole softback English version, The 12th SS, Volume One:

" "Kampfgruppe Rauch", attacking further to the left was able to make good headway. It pushed exactly into the gap between the 3rd British and the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division. During the further advance, the III./Grenadierregiment 736 with the 15 cm self-propelled batterie "Graf Waldersee" joined this attack from the area north of Plumetot. This Kampfgruppe had already reached the beach near Lion-sur-Mer during a counterattack before noon, but had to withdraw when it was attacked on the flank and in the rear. Around 19.00 hours the reinforced Kampfgruppe Rauch reached the beach near Luc-sur-Mer where a few German strongpoints had withstood all attacks so far. The Kampfgruppe prepared to advance further along the coast and to cut off the English, who were advancing to the south, from their supply bases. Then an event occurred which brought about a decisive turn-around."
Sam Wren wrote:Well, maybe not just yet. Meyer lists as his sources Kortenhaus's Divisional history of the 21 PD, which was in extremely limited circulation at the time, and MS B-441 "Geschichte der 21.Panzerdivision für die Zeit von ihrer Aufstellung bis zum Invasionsbeginn" by Generalmajor Feuchtinger. Kortenhaus, in turn, uses Feuchtinger's Foreign Military Studies manuscripts as a source.

So, apart from Schaaf's testimony, the only other source for information on Batterie "Graf Waldersee" is a history that was put together by Feuchtinger from memory almost two years after the fact. It is possible that Kortenhaus obtained his info from other sources but this is unknown since he did not use footnotes, just a list of sources at the end of the book. Perhaps Feuchtinger had an excellent memory and was able to remember all the details just right. But if his was anything like mine, after a few weeks the events start to run into each other and get all mixed up. I would feel much happier if I could find some documentary evidence that is not sourced from Kortenhaus or from any of the FMS manuscripts.

For what it's worth, Kortenhaus says this (Pg 63 of Reprint) and my questionable translations:
....
"The only mobile battery, the 3./I. Abteilung "Graf Waldersee", had four sFH 414 (French) 15 cm caliber guns mounted on French self-propelled gun carriages. The battery stood in field positions at Plumetot..." [obviously, Kortenhaus was wrong about the howitzer]

Pg. 107:
...
"The still operational 3./Artl.Rgt. 1716 "Graf Waldersee" of the 716. Inf. Div, directed from an observation post, remained firing in the emerging light, with its four 15 cm artillery barrage, onto the beach between Luc-sur-Mer and Lion-sur-Mer and the Merville Battery."

Still on Pg. 107:
...
"Even before 10.00 o'clock the III./Inf.Rgt 738, supported by the "Graf Waldersee" Battery, moved out from the Plumentot area to counter-attack in the direction of Lion-sur-Mer. The attack broke through up to the church of Lion-sur-Mer and two cannons of the "Graf Waldersee" Battery€ reached the waterline...A strong English counter attack from the West and from behind forced the Kampfgruppe to retreat."
Sam Wren wrote:...
There is very little mention of the artillery of the 21. Pz Div in Kortenhaus's history relating to the first few days of the invasion. Here is what I found, picking up from where I left off earlier. All translations are mine and may not be very accurate. The quoted parts are all from Kortenhaus's history:
****************************************
Page 109, evening 6.6.44:
The tenacious resistance of the 11th and 12 Companies of Inf.Rgt. 736, which still remained in their original positions, and particularly the counter-attack by the group including the "Graf Waldersee" battery, had frustrated this plan first.
(referring to the failure of the British and Canadians to close the gap between Sword and Juno on D-Day)

***************************************
Pg. 124-125, evening of 6.6.44:
The remaining guns of the "Graf Waldersee" battery, a few guns of Pz.Jg.Abtl. 200 and of the Pz.Art.Rgt. 155, mainly at La Bijude and Epron, were the only heavy weapons that were available to secure the left flank of the division. In addition, there were three guns of 2./s.Artl.Abtl. 989 just north of Caen.
...
So this, match with your map.


Regards,
Rui
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jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 20 Jul 2011 21:24

Thanks Rui

Seem the puzzle pieces are coming together , to get the complete picture .

Regards Jos

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 20 Jul 2011 22:46

For those interested in the Infanterie-Divisionen in Normandy with a SP battery of 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (batteries formed by an order from the OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. in 19.12.1943 from existent independent batteries, that became part of the I.D., but planned to convert, to towed French artillery, afterwards).

Data from the great posts of Martin Block in "Oberleutnant Rudolf Schaaf Normandy 1944" and from Emmanuel Férey in the topic "Motorized batteries of the 711. ID. (Normandy 1944)":

Topics:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=169605
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=170726

10./A.R. 266 = ? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-St.Bttr. (K) 159)
4./A.R. 1708 = ? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-4./A.R. 658)
8./A.R. 1709 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Reichenau")
8./A.R. 1711 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
10./A.R. 1716 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee")


The information in Zetterling's "Normandy 1944". In [x] = specific type
10./A.R. 266 = 4 x 15.5 cm howitzers (1)
4./A.R. 1708 = 4 x French 10.5 cm howitzers (2)
8./A.R. 1709 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (3) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]
8./A.R. 1711 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (4) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]
10./A.R. 1716 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (5) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]


(1) Gliederungen AOK 7, BA-MA RH 20-7/136
(2) Anlagen zum KTB LXXXI. A.K. Ia, Gliederung der 708. I.D., T314, R1593, F969
(3) Gliederung der 709. I.D., Stand 1.5.44, T312, R1566, F000217
(4) Stoart AOK 15 Nr. 629/44 g.Kdos, Art. Gliederung der 15. Armee, Stand vo, 1.6.44, T312, R516, F811528ff
(5) Gliederung der 716. I.D., Stand 1.5.44, T312, R1566, F000215


Regards,
Rui
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jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 21 Jul 2011 09:29

10./A.R. 266 = ? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-St.Bttr. (K) 159)
4./A.R. 1708 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-4./A.R. 658)
8./A.R. 1709 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Reichenau")
8./A.R. 1711 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
10./A.R. 1716 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee")


The information in Zetterling's "Normandy 1944". In [x] = specific type
10./A.R. 266 = 4 x 15.5 cm howitzers (1) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]
4./A.R. 1708 = 4 x French 10.5 cm howitzers (2)
8./A.R. 1709 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (3) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]
8./A.R. 1711 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (4) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]
10./A.R. 1716 = 4 x French 15.5 cm howitzers (5) [15.5 cm s.F.H. 414(f)]

Here some extra information to complete the list .

(1) list from A.K. LXXIV date 31-05-1944 with the 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) and the 10./266 [ s.F.H. 414 (f) ]
(2) list from 708 I.D. date 01-10-1943 with the A.R. 658
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jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by jopaerya » 21 Jul 2011 11:00

On a map from 1943 the socalled Reichenau was called ge?.Ger.Battr 709
The 715 I.D. had the 4./671 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 01-06-1943 )
The 719 I.D. had the Art Zug 442 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 05-03-1943 )

Regards Jos

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 21 Jul 2011 17:15

jopaerya wrote:Here some extra information to complete the list .

(1) list from A.K. LXXIV date 31-05-1944 with the 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) and the 10./266 [ s.F.H. 414 (f) ]
(2) list from 708 I.D. date 01-10-1943 with the A.R. 658
Hi Jos,

I think you may have it nailed it down finally with the LXXIV A.K. report of 31 May 1944. If by that time they were still retaining the 15cm (Sf) as equipment reserve for mobile committment at the disposal of the division commander in 266. ID then I think it reasonable that 716. ID would still have been doing the same. The question only remains if the other divisions that retained the equipment ever actually committed them to action other than 716. ID?

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 21 Jul 2011 19:46

jopaerya wrote:On a map from 1943 the socalled Reichenau was called ge?.Ger.Battr 709
The 715 I.D. had the 4./671 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 01-06-1943 )
The 719 I.D. had the Art Zug 442 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 05-03-1943 )

Regards Jos

Hi Jos,

Congratulations, you have found a "new" unit with 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf). The 715 I.D. was missing in the Martin Block post. :D (Thanks, also for info about the number and type of guns missing)

Martin Block wrote: ...
While we are at it, several more independent Sd.Kfz. 135/1 units were renamed on 19.12.1943 and incorporated into infantry divisions:
St.Bttr. (K) 159 => 10./A.R. 266
10.-11./A.R. 344 => 10./A.R. 344
Art.Zug 441 => 7./A.R. 347
4./A.R. 658 => 4./1708
1 Sf.Bttr. without number/name => 8./A.R. 1711
1 Sf.Bttr. without number/name => 8./A.R. 1712
Art.Zug 441 => 7./A.R. 1719
Again all of them also earmarked for conversion to towed French guns during the following months.
...
In the Martin's post, he mentions that Art.Zug 441 was renamed as 7./A.R. 1719. But he also mentions the Art.Zug 441 renaming into 7./A.R. 347. You mention that was Art.Zug 442 that became part of the 709. I.D. Probably somone's typo? :milwink:

Your first image is from which unit? 10/A.R. 266? If so, it had:
???/10./A.R. 266 = 2 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
???/10./A.R. 266 = 1 x 7,62 cm IKH 290(r)
???/10./A.R. 266 = 4 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)


Regards,
Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 21 Jul 2011 23:11

jopaerya wrote:On a map from 1943 the socalled Reichenau was called ge?.Ger.Battr 709
The 715 I.D. had the 4./671 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 01-06-1943 )
The 719 I.D. had the Art Zug 442 with 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 05-03-1943 )

Regards Jos
Hi Jos,

For “ge?” I read “gep” on the map and I think it means “gepanzerte” which would make sense for the s.F.13/1 (Sfl) since it was mounted on a tracked chassis and protected by armored plates.

By the way, what does “Geräte” mean?

Emmanuel

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Rui » 21 Jul 2011 23:29

Manuferey wrote: ...
By the way, what does “Geräte” mean?

Emmanuel
Gerät = device; equipment; gadget; tool; piece of equipment; utensil; apparatus
Geräte is plural of Gerät

Regards,
Rui
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T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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