Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#46

Post by Manuferey » 22 Jul 2011, 02:48

Rui,

Yes, indeed. But I have the impression that "Gerät" has a specific military meaning here since the Germans distinguished a "Geräte Batterie" from a "normal" battery. And later on these "Geräte Batterien" became regular batteries. :?

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#47

Post by RichTO90 » 22 Jul 2011, 03:32

Manuferey wrote:Rui,

Yes, indeed. But I have the impression that "Gerät" has a specific military meaning here since the Germans distinguished a "Geräte Batterie" from a "normal" battery. And later on these "Geräte Batterien" became regular batteries. :?

Emmanuel
In this context Gerät was a piece of equipment that was not part of a unit's official equipment issue but that was present for use as the unit saw fit. It was akin to the bodenständiges Waffen available to the divisions manning the Atlantik Wall defenses. If the unit moved away and was replaced by a new one then the new unit would "inherit" the equipment.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.


jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#48

Post by jopaerya » 22 Jul 2011, 10:00

Hello Rui

Here some very hard to read documents , but you can see the Art. Zugs .
719 I.D. = Art Zug 442
347 I.D. = Art Zug 441

The batterie's from the LXXIV A.K. are not from the 10./266 but called "Nicht einges. Geschütz."

Also very typical is the renumbering of these A.R. in 1716, 1712 or 1719 for example

Regards Jos
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#49

Post by Rui » 22 Jul 2011, 21:32

jopaerya wrote:Hello Rui

Here some very hard to read documents , but you can see the Art. Zugs .
719 I.D. = Art Zug 442
347 I.D. = Art Zug 441

The batterie's from the LXXIV A.K. are not from the 10./266 but called "Nicht einges. Geschütz."

Also very typical is the renumbering of these A.R. in 1716, 1712 or 1719 for example

Regards Jos
Hi Jos,
Do you have the BA-MA in your house?! :D
Do you also know, who killed JFK? 8-)

Based on your images, it was bod.Art.Zug 441 and bod.Art.Zug 442.

About the Artillerie-Regiment 658
Formed on 21 June 1943 through the restructuring of Artillerie-Abteilung 658, Artillerie-Regiment 658 was redesignated two times in seven months: Artillerie-Regiment 708 on 8 December 1943 and Artillerie-Regiment 1708 on 19 January 1944.
Source: Axis History Factbook: 708. Infanterie-Division
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3976

But in the 715. I.D., the artillery regiment was Artillerie-Regiment 671, not renumbered like the others I.D. (bo.).
The 715. I.D. was sent to Italy in January 1944, I presume the SPG stayed in France? And probably another unit received the SPG?

Also note the SPG battery in both images, in A.R. 347, the bo.Art.Zug 441 was attached to the Rgt.Stab and the bo.Art.Zug 442 was attached to the I.Abt. Stab of the 719. A.R. This could explain, the "missing" SPG.

The following is hopefully complete list of the 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) units in the Infanterie-Divisionen:

Red Bold = Jos's additions
underline text = Missing information

266. I.D.: 10./A.R. 266 = 6? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-St.Bttr. (K) 159)
344. I.D.: 10./A.R. 344 = ? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-10.-11./A.R. 344)
347. I.D.: 7./A.R. 347 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-bo.Art.Zug 441)
708. I.D.: 4./A.R. 1708 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-4./A.R. 658)
709. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1709 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Reichenau")
711. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1711 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
712. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1712 = ? x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
715. I.D.: 4./A.R. 671 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) ( 01-06-1943 )
716. I.D.: 10./A.R. 1716 = 3 or 6 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee")
719. I.D.: 7./A.R. 1719 = 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-bo.Art.Zug 442)


From Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10 - Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten (page 10-46):
A 2nd batch of conversions of 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) were produced, with a total of 64, they were given to:
Gep. A.R. 1 (Sfl.) = 30 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) in 5 x batteries, each with 6 x SPG
Gep. A.R. 2 (Sfl.) = 30 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) in 5 x batteries, each with 6 x SPG
?????? = 4 x x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)

The fate of the 60 known SPG, after the disbanded of the Gep. A.R. (Sfl.):
Gep. A.R. 1 (Sfl.) => 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) in each I.D. in the West, (it give a total of 10 x batteries, it match with 10 x batteries known by now)
Gep. A.R. 2 (Sfl.) => A.R. 931 => P.A.R. 155 => 21. P.D., with 24 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)


24 in 21. P.D.
27 or 30 in I.D. (based on the data, already collected)
13 or 10 missing


Regards,
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

jopaerya
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#50

Post by jopaerya » 22 Jul 2011, 21:54

Hi Jos,

Do you have the BA-MA in your house?! :D Yes , I have the keys of the archive stores
Do you also know, who killed JFK? 8-) Yes , Not Lee Harvey Oswald .

Regards Jos

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#51

Post by Manuferey » 23 Jul 2011, 00:29

Thanks Rich for your explanation on "Geräte batterie".

The fact that the Graf Waldersee battery is shown with 6 self-propelled guns on Jos’ map of early 1944 is interesting as this quantity of six matches the number of guns in the batteries of Pz.Art.Regt 155 with self-propelled guns and in particular with 15 cm sFH13.
The Gliederung of 21 Pz. Div dated June 1st, 1944 shows only 2 batteries of 6 sFH13 each (6./155 and 9./155). And it confirms separately 12 sFH13 (sfl) along with 24 leFH18 auf Lorraine.

Rui’s idea of adding the former 3 guns from batterie Reichenau (8/1709) makes sense since both 709 ID and 716 ID were under LXXXIV AK.

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#52

Post by jopaerya » 23 Jul 2011, 10:45

Hello All

First my sensire condolences to all the Norwegians who lost their loved ones in the attacks .

Found a other division that had 3 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13 (Sf) , the 348 I.D.

Regards Jos

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#53

Post by RichTO90 » 23 Jul 2011, 19:28

Rui wrote:[Your first image is from which unit? 10/A.R. 266? If so, it had:
???/10./A.R. 266 = 2 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
???/10./A.R. 266 = 1 x 7,62 cm IKH 290(r)
???/10./A.R. 266 = 4 x 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
I missed this before - mea culpa, I've been ill. The notation with the four 13/1 indicates that they were the Gerätebatterie, but the notation for the other pieces is "beweglich eingesetzte", which I believe indicates they were being sent away from the division? Probably for issue to other units. I wonder if the same may have occured with the Graf Waldersee Batterie? Reducing it from six in early 1944 to the three that Schaaf et al mention?

Of course there is also the 24 with 21. Panzer. It is odd that only those 24 plus the 7 with 266. and 716, are accounted for more or less definitely. Where are the other 23? That could be 7 other Gerätebatterien plus a small reserve. I lean more and more to the notion that the Gerätebatterien remained after their parent battery converted to the 15.5cm 414 (f).

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#54

Post by RichTO90 » 23 Jul 2011, 19:49

Rui wrote:If the III./A.R. 1716 were detached to the 352. I.D., the composing batteries (8./; 9./ and 10./) would be west of the position shown on the map?

8./A.R. 1716 = 4 x 10 cm le.F.H. 14/19(t) - Maisy La Martiniere (Wn 84)
9./A.R. 1716 = 4 x 15,5 cm s.F.H. 414(f) - Maisy Les Perruques (Wn 83)
Still catching up I'm afraid. Only Stab/III./Art.Regt. 1716 and 8. and 9. Batterie were detached to 352. ID. 10. Batterie remained with 716. ID attached to I. Abteilung.

It just occurred to me too that we also have accounts that seem to associate the "Graf Waldersee" Batterie with 3. Batterie. Since that battery was in process of converting to 10cm (t) pieces it is possible they had the personnel to spare to man a few extra pieces as well and could explain the 6 pieces given on the map.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#55

Post by RichTO90 » 23 Jul 2011, 20:12

Rui wrote:But in the 715. I.D., the artillery regiment was Artillerie-Regiment 671, not renumbered like the others I.D. (bo.).
The 715. I.D. was sent to Italy in January 1944, I presume the SPG stayed in France? And probably another unit received the SPG?
Yes, it went to Italy, but not as a Bodenständiges Division, but rather as a Behilfsmässiges-Motorisiert Division. :D Which, when I can access my old Italy files at Dupuy may give some answers since I don't recall if they had the 13/1 at Anzio, but I suspect not. They probably went to another division.

Here is what I thnk the evidence is pointing to now:

266. I.D.: 10./A.R. 266 = four 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-St.Bttr. (K) 159)
344. I.D.: 10./A.R. 344 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-10.-11./A.R. 344)
347. I.D.: 7./A.R. 347 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-bo.Art.Zug 441)
348. I.D.: = three 15cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
708. I.D.: 4./A.R. 1708 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-4./A.R. 658)
709. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1709 = zero 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Reichenau" to Graf Waldersee)
711. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1711 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
712. I.D.: 8./A.R. 1712 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-Sf.Bttr. without number/name)
715. I.D.: 4./A.R. 671 = zero (?) 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf)
716. I.D.: 3. & 10./A.R. 1716 = six 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-"Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee and Reichenau")
719. I.D.: 7./A.R. 1719 = three 15 cm s.F.H. 13/1 (Sf) (ex-bo.Art.Zug 442)

Total of 31 plus 24 with 21. Panzer = 55. The remaining nine or more would be held as reserves or may have been lost to damage incurred in training or day to day wear.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#56

Post by Manuferey » 23 Jul 2011, 23:50

RichTO90 wrote:Total of 31 plus 24 with 21. Panzer = 55.
Rich,

How do you get 24 of the 15 cm sFH13 for 21. Pz-Div.? I can only find 12 of these guns in the Gliederung of June 1st, 1944. :?

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#57

Post by RichTO90 » 24 Jul 2011, 00:20

Manuferey wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:Total of 31 plus 24 with 21. Panzer = 55.
Rich,

How do you get 24 of the 15 cm sFH13 for 21. Pz-Div.? I can only find 12 of these guns in the Gliederung of June 1st, 1944. :?

Emmanuel
12 more are with 9./Panzergrenadier Regiment 125 and 9./Panzergrandier Regiment 192.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#58

Post by Rui » 24 Jul 2011, 13:05

RichTO90 wrote:
Manuferey wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:Total of 31 plus 24 with 21. Panzer = 55.
Rich,

How do you get 24 of the 15 cm sFH13 for 21. Pz-Div.? I can only find 12 of these guns in the Gliederung of June 1st, 1944. :?

Emmanuel
12 more are with 9./Panzergrenadier Regiment 125 and 9./Panzergrandier Regiment 192.

Cheers!
Perhaps this post helps.... :D
(My post in the topic: 21st Panzer Division Kriegsgliederung 1/6/44)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=162803
Rui wrote:This is the image mentioned earlier. Note the following:

1 - Tactical symbol of a halftracked multi-mortar launcher in:
a) Division Stab
b) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
c) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
d) Pz.Art.Rgt.155

2 - Tactical symbol of SP Artillery Guns in:
a) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
b) 4. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
c) 8. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
d) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
e) 4. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
f) 8. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
g) 4. - 9. batterie/Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 (each with 6 SPG)


Image
“This chart is from 1 May, 1944, 7AOK Kriegtagbuch 1.5.44, National Archives,
Captured German Documents section 312, roll 1566.”
Link from the site: http://www.spearhead1944.com/gerpg/21ger_rec.htm


The K.St.N. is correct? Since this image of a Kriegsstaerkenachweisungen (K.St.N.) from the 21. Panzer Division on 01.05.1944, seems that was edited. (Could be the Germans also wrote in English for better universal understanding, probably for this forum? :milwink: )

Regards,
Rui Esteves
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#59

Post by Manuferey » 24 Jul 2011, 13:48

Thank you very much, Rui ! 24 indeed. 8-)

I was looking only at Pz-Art.-Regt 155. :oops:

Image

Emmanuel

Rui
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

#60

Post by Rui » 24 Jul 2011, 16:58

Rui wrote:
Perhaps this post helps.... :D
(My post in the topic: 21st Panzer Division Kriegsgliederung 1/6/44)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=162803
Rui wrote: ...
1 - Tactical symbol of a halftracked multi-mortar launcher in:
a) Division Stab
b) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
c) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
d) Pz.Art.Rgt.155

2 - Tactical symbol of SP Artillery Guns in:
a) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
b) 4. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
c) 8. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 125
d) Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
e) 4. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
f) 8. (schwere) kompanie/Pz.Gren. Rgt. 192
g) 4. - 9. batterie/Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 (each with 6 SPG)

...

Hi, Emmanuel

The K.St.N. is correct? Since this image of a Kriegsstaerkenachweisungen (K.St.N.) from the 21. Panzer Division on 01.05.1944, seems that was edited. (Could be the Germans also wrote in English for better universal understanding, probably for this forum? :milwink: )

Do you also notice, the "strange" SPG distribution in the Pz.Gren.Rgt., divided between the s.Kp. and the Rgt.Stab? Also strange is the tactical symbol of a halftracked multi-mortar launcher in the Division Stab...

Regards,
Rui Esteves
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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