Hi All,
In the NARA records, his post war report, General Richter says 10/1716 had 4 SP 15.5cm pcs, and returned with remainder of 3 guns on 6/6/1944.
Rand
Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Hi Simon and others.
I have been reading this with interest and I have a theory which might prove worthy of discussion.
I have found evidence to suggest that the 10th battery of the 1716th was at invasion target Number 16A - Maisy. The evidence is this...
A) I found a pair of wheels for a 150mm howitzer in the ground at that position and they are now on display in the Maisy car park.
B) The guns were not removed from position 16 and moved to 16A on or before D-day as is suggested in some reports - simply because both positions returned fire on the allies on D-day and beyond. I have reports on both positions being either destroyed or overrun 3 days later.
C) The 3rd Staff HQ and batteries 8, 9 and 10 of the 1716th Art. share the same feldpost number at Maisy - all the other batteries have differing locations and feldpost numbers.
Therefore is it sensible to suggest that the 10th battery with its 4 x 150mm howitzers were at 16A Maisy?
Your comments please.
Gary
I have been reading this with interest and I have a theory which might prove worthy of discussion.
I have found evidence to suggest that the 10th battery of the 1716th was at invasion target Number 16A - Maisy. The evidence is this...
A) I found a pair of wheels for a 150mm howitzer in the ground at that position and they are now on display in the Maisy car park.
B) The guns were not removed from position 16 and moved to 16A on or before D-day as is suggested in some reports - simply because both positions returned fire on the allies on D-day and beyond. I have reports on both positions being either destroyed or overrun 3 days later.
C) The 3rd Staff HQ and batteries 8, 9 and 10 of the 1716th Art. share the same feldpost number at Maisy - all the other batteries have differing locations and feldpost numbers.
Therefore is it sensible to suggest that the 10th battery with its 4 x 150mm howitzers were at 16A Maisy?
Your comments please.
Gary
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
The SP battery was not at Maisy. I think it was at Plumetot and was equipped with 6 x sFH 13 mounted on Lorraine chassis. I have seen it referred to as the 'Graf Waldersee' battery. It doesn't feature on 1.5.44 Kriegsgliederung submitted by 716 ID.
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Gary,
Could the wheels have been moved after the war from Target # 5 i.e. 9./1716 at Stp 83 - Maisy-Les Perruques - with 4 x 15,5 cm sFH414(f)?
Emmanuel
Could the wheels have been moved after the war from Target # 5 i.e. 9./1716 at Stp 83 - Maisy-Les Perruques - with 4 x 15,5 cm sFH414(f)?
Emmanuel
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Hi Emmanuel
Thats not possible... firstly because the guns at Les Perruques were French 155mm Howitzers - a completely different gun - the wheels on the French model are wooden with a steel rim. The German wheels are manufactured in steel. I can back this up also from Rangers reports of seeing them a) firing before the attack and b) destroyed after the battle... and also as Mr Chazette shows in his book = the old man Mr Montagne a local farmer is stood next to a 155mm howitzer upturned after a navy strike just in front of pit 1 at target No 5. Les Perruques.
I bought the wheels shown in this photograph from his son a few years ago and they are on display with their axle at the site next to the car park.
This is a widely known photograph and where the barrel of the upturned gun it has hit the wall - I still have the damage to the wall around the gun pit as shown in the photograph.
The wheels found at 16A were 1 ft under the surface of the ground and we dug them up. If they were not from the original guns at 16A then why would someone come along after the battle - into a French field and bury a good set of 15 cm wheels? Not sensible I do not think.
I am confident that battery 10 ended up at Maisy. They arrived about 4 weeks before D-day and are shown up on all the aerial reconnaissance photos of the time at Fouchet's Farm. Also - why the same Feldpost number with battery 10, HQ and batteries 8 and 9 ? I have the account of the guns existence at 16A from the Farmers son who was told about them by his father. His farm was destroyed in the battle.
If I can find my notes I will let you have the US navy ships report of destroying the guns at 16A and the aerial observation from a spotter plane above. The Rangers attacked the guns at target 5 and 16 on the 9th of June - there was another battery at 16A - why could it not Number 10.
As someone said in the above thread the German officers accounts of where unit No 10 where were not accurate...
Also.... In the Germans records there are numerous reports of 6 x 155mm howitzers at Maisy - many state "4 pits constructed - 2 to be constructed"... in the allied pre-D-day reports they list 4 pits because they can only see 4 on the aerial reconnaisance photos.
If you look along the coast many of the batteries at in a 6 & 4 configuration when they use 155mm/150mm guns.
Ouistreham and Merville.... 6 & 4
Longues Sur Mer & Vers sur Mer 4 Naval Guns x 4
Maisy and Maisy 6 x 4
Crisbecq and Quinneville (originally 6 guns) and 4 etc.
The Germans seem to downgrade the number of guns to 4 when they replace them with newer models.
Gary
Thats not possible... firstly because the guns at Les Perruques were French 155mm Howitzers - a completely different gun - the wheels on the French model are wooden with a steel rim. The German wheels are manufactured in steel. I can back this up also from Rangers reports of seeing them a) firing before the attack and b) destroyed after the battle... and also as Mr Chazette shows in his book = the old man Mr Montagne a local farmer is stood next to a 155mm howitzer upturned after a navy strike just in front of pit 1 at target No 5. Les Perruques.
I bought the wheels shown in this photograph from his son a few years ago and they are on display with their axle at the site next to the car park.
This is a widely known photograph and where the barrel of the upturned gun it has hit the wall - I still have the damage to the wall around the gun pit as shown in the photograph.
The wheels found at 16A were 1 ft under the surface of the ground and we dug them up. If they were not from the original guns at 16A then why would someone come along after the battle - into a French field and bury a good set of 15 cm wheels? Not sensible I do not think.
I am confident that battery 10 ended up at Maisy. They arrived about 4 weeks before D-day and are shown up on all the aerial reconnaissance photos of the time at Fouchet's Farm. Also - why the same Feldpost number with battery 10, HQ and batteries 8 and 9 ? I have the account of the guns existence at 16A from the Farmers son who was told about them by his father. His farm was destroyed in the battle.
If I can find my notes I will let you have the US navy ships report of destroying the guns at 16A and the aerial observation from a spotter plane above. The Rangers attacked the guns at target 5 and 16 on the 9th of June - there was another battery at 16A - why could it not Number 10.
As someone said in the above thread the German officers accounts of where unit No 10 where were not accurate...
Also.... In the Germans records there are numerous reports of 6 x 155mm howitzers at Maisy - many state "4 pits constructed - 2 to be constructed"... in the allied pre-D-day reports they list 4 pits because they can only see 4 on the aerial reconnaisance photos.
If you look along the coast many of the batteries at in a 6 & 4 configuration when they use 155mm/150mm guns.
Ouistreham and Merville.... 6 & 4
Longues Sur Mer & Vers sur Mer 4 Naval Guns x 4
Maisy and Maisy 6 x 4
Crisbecq and Quinneville (originally 6 guns) and 4 etc.
The Germans seem to downgrade the number of guns to 4 when they replace them with newer models.
Gary
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Sorry... yes I agree... No 10 was NOT self propelled battery if indeed those were the guns at 16A... these were a fixed battery of 4 field guns.
Not Self Propelled weapons. They were in position too long and did not moved until destroyed. Not indicatative of a SP unit.
Gary
Not Self Propelled weapons. They were in position too long and did not moved until destroyed. Not indicatative of a SP unit.
Gary
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Gary,
I have found a picture of the wheels on this site
:
http://www.oisterwijk-marketgarden.com/ ... ttery.html
From German documents, we know that the guns of 10./1716 were 15,5 cm sFH414(f), the same howitzers as Target #5, Les Perruques. Therefore, it would not match the steel wheels that you found.
However, these wheels could have come from 15 cm sFH18 howitzers (or s10 cm K.18 guns) and the only unit in the area armed with this type of weapons was IV./AR 352 with 3 batteries of 4 x 15 cm sFH18 each. The howitzers were horse-drawn.
As far as I know, the positions of the batteries of IV./352 on D-Day have not been established yet. So, could one battery have been positioned at 16A on D-Day?
Emmanuel
I have found a picture of the wheels on this site
:http://www.oisterwijk-marketgarden.com/ ... ttery.html
From German documents, we know that the guns of 10./1716 were 15,5 cm sFH414(f), the same howitzers as Target #5, Les Perruques. Therefore, it would not match the steel wheels that you found.
However, these wheels could have come from 15 cm sFH18 howitzers (or s10 cm K.18 guns) and the only unit in the area armed with this type of weapons was IV./AR 352 with 3 batteries of 4 x 15 cm sFH18 each. The howitzers were horse-drawn.
As far as I know, the positions of the batteries of IV./352 on D-Day have not been established yet. So, could one battery have been positioned at 16A on D-Day?
Emmanuel
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
HI Emmanuel
If that is the case and Battery 10 did have sFH 414 then you are right. So... the battery at 16A could well be IV/352nd. I will have a look and ask a German friend of mine who has a lot of information on unit numbers and allocation of weapons.
They would have to have been destroyed during the invasion - if that is the case then they could well by the 16A unit.
Gary
If that is the case and Battery 10 did have sFH 414 then you are right. So... the battery at 16A could well be IV/352nd. I will have a look and ask a German friend of mine who has a lot of information on unit numbers and allocation of weapons.
They would have to have been destroyed during the invasion - if that is the case then they could well by the 16A unit.
Gary
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Gary,
According to Gordon Harrison in “Cross Channel Attack”, the Germans could not withdraw their artillery in the Grandcamp-Maisy area and had to abandon them:
“The isolation of the various units in the Grandcamp-Isigny area as well as the presence of valuable artillery pieces there complicated the problem of withdrawal. It required time to organize and carry out. No time was granted. The 914th Regiment found itself unable to offer effective resistance on the road to Isigny. The battalion of the 352d Artillery Regiment had to pull out in such a hurry that its guns were abandoned, thus reducing division artillery for the fighting on 9 June to fourteen guns.”
Emmanuel
According to Gordon Harrison in “Cross Channel Attack”, the Germans could not withdraw their artillery in the Grandcamp-Maisy area and had to abandon them:
“The isolation of the various units in the Grandcamp-Isigny area as well as the presence of valuable artillery pieces there complicated the problem of withdrawal. It required time to organize and carry out. No time was granted. The 914th Regiment found itself unable to offer effective resistance on the road to Isigny. The battalion of the 352d Artillery Regiment had to pull out in such a hurry that its guns were abandoned, thus reducing division artillery for the fighting on 9 June to fourteen guns.”
Emmanuel
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Gary,
It is possible that Target #16A was originally set up as the temporary position of 8./1716 (4 x 10 cm leFH14/19(t)) while its casemates were being built at Target # 16 (Stp 84 – La Martinière). This would explain why the Allies noted a transfer from 16A to 16 as 3 out of 4 casemates had been ready shortly prior to D-Day.
It would have made sense then from a German standpoint to reuse the prepared artillery position at Target 16A with a battery from AR 352, once 8./1716 was moved in its new casemates type 612, in order to add additional firepower to defend the “Baie des Veys” and the approaches to Carentan.
Have you found any constructions at Target # 16A such as small ammunition bunkers?
Emmanuel
It is possible that Target #16A was originally set up as the temporary position of 8./1716 (4 x 10 cm leFH14/19(t)) while its casemates were being built at Target # 16 (Stp 84 – La Martinière). This would explain why the Allies noted a transfer from 16A to 16 as 3 out of 4 casemates had been ready shortly prior to D-Day.
It would have made sense then from a German standpoint to reuse the prepared artillery position at Target 16A with a battery from AR 352, once 8./1716 was moved in its new casemates type 612, in order to add additional firepower to defend the “Baie des Veys” and the approaches to Carentan.
Have you found any constructions at Target # 16A such as small ammunition bunkers?
Emmanuel
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Just something I dug up from the Canadian sector with German Arty positions on D-Day.
Dale
LTC USA (retired)
LTC USA (retired)
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
HI
Sorry for the delay in replying, I had a problem re-logging back in.
To briefly answer your questions… the guns at La Martiniere were not removed anywhere. They were still in position when the battery was attacked, and fired at the Rangers as they approached across the fields. Also, the US Navy intelligence reports state that the guns were "turned around to fire backwards"… they were firing at the Rangers as they attacked.
I have a number of different photos of the guns after the battle. Here is a photograph.
On the second point - the location of Battery No 10 of the 716th Artillery. The First Infantry Division S-2 Intelligence reports list the units encountered by the First Inf. Div - on a day by day basis.
It is interesting that the 1st Inf. Div captured men from the 10th Battery 1716th on the 10th of June.
Thats a pretty compelling evidence in writing that the 10th Battery were at Maisy. If anyone else can produce better evidence of where they were - other than speculation - then I am happy to hear it.
Otherwise I think this answers the question of who was in battery 16A on D-day. This is the record of the demise of that battery from my book.
"Jim Snakenberg was in the Shubrik’s combat information centre:
We were stationed right off the beach on 7 June. In the afternoon we got a call to fire on an ammo dump. The figures they gave us made us hit the top of a hill, if we depressed we went over the dump. The Ex (Executive officer) was an old fire-control man. He drew a hill and put in the hit we made. He gave me some figures that turned the guns almost straight up. This time we got the call back, ‘On target, walk and talk’. After firing many times they said. ‘Target destroyed’. A big black smoke came up from the other side of the hill. We knew we had him.
That was the end of target 16A."
Sorry for the delay in replying, I had a problem re-logging back in.
To briefly answer your questions… the guns at La Martiniere were not removed anywhere. They were still in position when the battery was attacked, and fired at the Rangers as they approached across the fields. Also, the US Navy intelligence reports state that the guns were "turned around to fire backwards"… they were firing at the Rangers as they attacked.
I have a number of different photos of the guns after the battle. Here is a photograph.
On the second point - the location of Battery No 10 of the 716th Artillery. The First Infantry Division S-2 Intelligence reports list the units encountered by the First Inf. Div - on a day by day basis.
It is interesting that the 1st Inf. Div captured men from the 10th Battery 1716th on the 10th of June.
Thats a pretty compelling evidence in writing that the 10th Battery were at Maisy. If anyone else can produce better evidence of where they were - other than speculation - then I am happy to hear it.
Otherwise I think this answers the question of who was in battery 16A on D-day. This is the record of the demise of that battery from my book.
"Jim Snakenberg was in the Shubrik’s combat information centre:
We were stationed right off the beach on 7 June. In the afternoon we got a call to fire on an ammo dump. The figures they gave us made us hit the top of a hill, if we depressed we went over the dump. The Ex (Executive officer) was an old fire-control man. He drew a hill and put in the hit we made. He gave me some figures that turned the guns almost straight up. This time we got the call back, ‘On target, walk and talk’. After firing many times they said. ‘Target destroyed’. A big black smoke came up from the other side of the hill. We knew we had him.
That was the end of target 16A."
- Attachments
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
This is the third time I have tried to post this.
In brief… The guns at Position 16 were in place, US naval intelligence report that the guns were "turned around to fire backwards at the Rangers" as they approached on the morning of the 9th of June.
I have a number of photos which confirm this (see below) and the evidence is on the back of the casements… many bullet and shell marks to the back of them.
The Rangers were being fired at by the guns as they approached. So there is no question that the guns were still there.
The main reason for this post is however to help with the other main issue… where was battery 10 of the 1716th Artillery on D-day.
A battery… previously unknown was at position 16A - of that there is no doubt. The following account is self evident and I have other evidence - which includes the wheels dug up from the position etc. This is an extract from my book which highlights the fate of those guns on the 7th of June.
Jim Snakenberg was in the Shubrik’s combat information centre:
We were stationed right off the beach on 7 June. In the afternoon we got a call to fire on an ammo dump. The figures they gave us made us hit the top of a hill, if we depressed we went over the dump. The Ex (Executive officer) was an old fire-control man. He drew a hill and put in the hit we made. He gave me some figures that turned the guns almost straight up. This time we got the call back, ‘On target, walk and talk’. After firing many times they said. ‘Target destroyed’. A big black smoke came up from the other side of the hill. We knew we had him.
That was the end of target 16A.
But the most compelling piece of evidence has just surfaced from the archives of the 1st Infantry Division S-2 Intelligence After Action Reports. I have attached part of a list of the units as they were captured - where and when… It specifically mentioned the men of 10th Battery of the 716th Artillery being captured on the 9th of June… which was the date that Maisy was attacked.
I have other unit information stating that the Artillery men of the 1716th Artillery were "fighting at infantry" at Maisy during the battle.
As the 1st Infantry Division were the ones involved in that attack… its not a stretch to say that this confirms where the 10th Battery of the 1716th were and when.
Here is the evidence. Unless anyone can produce firm - period evidence - rather than quoting from other books or second hand details… then we have to start again. But I think this is pretty compelling. Add that to the FeldPost Number being the same for Batteries 8, 9 & 10 - it seems pretty clear.
But as ever, these forums are a great source of info. So if anyone can expand on this it would help the debate.
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Hi
the 10./1716 AR is created on 19.12.1943 with 3 guns 15cm sFH 1.13 (Sf) mounted on tracked vehicles like French Lorraine (Sd.Kfz. 135/1).
It's an independent battery named "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" located in 1943 east of Bayeux, in Sommervieu.
From March 1944, the battery becomes 10/1716, under the command of the 716 division (III./1716)
Infantry. It is equipped with 4 guns 15.5 cm sFH414 (f) and positioned at Formigny
Do not confuse it with another battery also called "" Graf Waldersee "(11/1716?) Of Oberleutnant Rudolf Schaaf placed at Cresserons in June 44 with six guns 15cm sFH 1.13 (Sf) (Sd .Kfz. 135/1), (three of the 10/1716).
this is US video of the 10/1716 at Formigny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... skb4iOc394
Ben
the 10./1716 AR is created on 19.12.1943 with 3 guns 15cm sFH 1.13 (Sf) mounted on tracked vehicles like French Lorraine (Sd.Kfz. 135/1).
It's an independent battery named "Gerätebatterie Graf Waldersee" located in 1943 east of Bayeux, in Sommervieu.
From March 1944, the battery becomes 10/1716, under the command of the 716 division (III./1716)
Infantry. It is equipped with 4 guns 15.5 cm sFH414 (f) and positioned at Formigny
Do not confuse it with another battery also called "" Graf Waldersee "(11/1716?) Of Oberleutnant Rudolf Schaaf placed at Cresserons in June 44 with six guns 15cm sFH 1.13 (Sf) (Sd .Kfz. 135/1), (three of the 10/1716).
this is US video of the 10/1716 at Formigny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... skb4iOc394
Ben
Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944
Indeed, and it is not strange that the 1st ID would report prisoners from 10./1716. AR given that a major action was fought by the 3rd Battalion, 26th Infantry at Agy, SW of Bayeaux and SE of Formigny, from 9-11 June. I am not sure how this places 10./1716 at "Target 16a"?bunker14 wrote:From March 1944, the battery becomes 10/1716, under the command of the 716 division (III./1716)
Infantry. It is equipped with 4 guns 15.5 cm sFH414 (f) and positioned at Formigny.