6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

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Grigoriy
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6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 08 Aug 2011 06:56

Good Day to All!

I have a question: Wehrmacht captured some BEF 6 inch Mk XIX guns in Dunkirk, and they were not used by new owners. Is it known why they were so neglected? In coastal defence Germans used lot of more old guns, then why a good British gun was not used?

What was Beutenumber for this gun? I suppose it was 15.2cm K 436(e) or 15.2cm K 437(e) - look like the first one according to the range of 436(e), 17,14 kilometer, which is just the same that Mk XIX had. If it is true, then what weapon was 437(e) with range 22 kilometer? Was another British 6-inch long-range gun captured?

Great thanks!
With best wishes
Grigoriy

JKernwerk
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by JKernwerk » 08 Aug 2011 16:50

Maybe there was not enough ammunition.
Most of the pieces that were scrapped were out of ammo.
Greetings Jack.

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Clive Mortimore » 08 Aug 2011 18:52

Hi Grigoriy and Jack
What was Beutenumber for this gun? I suppose it was 15.2cm K 436(e) or 15.2cm K 437(e) - look like the first one according to the range of 436(e), 17,14 kilometer, which is just the same that Mk XIX had. If it is true, then what weapon was 437(e) with range 22 kilometer? Was another British 6-inch long-range gun captured?
Looking at Ian Hogg's British and American Artillery of World War 2, I would agree with the 15.2 cm K436(e) being the Mk XIX gun. The Mk 24 coast gun had a range of 24,500 yards (22.6 Km) and there was a semi mobile mounting for this gun the "Arrol-Withers Mobile Platform", could this be the 15.2 cm K 437(e)? There was evidence of a few of them being sent to Crete. A photo of a captured 6 inch coast gun barrel on Crete appeared on this forum not long ago. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... s#p1582927
Maybe there was not enough ammunition.
There was not enough ammuntion for the BEF let alone the new owners :)

Yours

Clive
Clive

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 08 Aug 2011 19:19

Jack and Clive, thanks for the answers!

Clive, very interesting about Mk24! Never heared about it. Have you more data about this gun? Or a source where it is detailed.

Kennblatter Fremden Gerat pages about 436(e) and 437(e) will be an answer... but KFG's on artillery are never to find. :(
With best wishes
Grigoriy

jopaerya
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by jopaerya » 09 Aug 2011 09:05

Hi Grigoriy

Yes , the Kennblätter fremden Geräts D 50/4 , 5 and 6 are very rare , so far I have contact
one person that had these documents and also publiced a few drawings on this Forum .

Regards Jos

P.S. very good option the 6 inch Mk. 24 for the 15.2cm K.437 (e) , strange is the original
document called it a 337 must be a typo .

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 09 Aug 2011 11:24

Hi Jos!
Thank you and thanks in advance to the person with KFG. :)

Yes, 337 in the original document must be a typo.
In KFG 337 is for 10,5cm K 337(n), so it cannot be a British 6-inch. :)
With best wishes
Grigoriy

EPOCH3
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by EPOCH3 » 09 Aug 2011 23:04

Hello all!

Please find links to a few pictures with regard to your on-going research
that I have of the 6" Mk XIX (note it is mounted to what is described as a MK VIII carriage).

also, included are some pages from KFG D50/5 as mentioned in the discussion above
for 436(e) and 437(e) equipments.

General question/thought - Could 436(e) MKVIII reference actually be confused with carriage type
meaning that 436 is the MK XIX and that it was used??? (KFG data is 1941)

Hope this helps a little - kind regards

http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_001a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_002a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_003a.jpg

http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K436_ ... g%201a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K436_ ... g%202a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K437_e_001a.jpg

jopaerya
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by jopaerya » 10 Aug 2011 06:01

Hello Greg

Thank you very much , thanks for sharing this great information .

Regards Jos

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 10 Aug 2011 06:04

Hello EPOCH3!
You are Great Man! Many thanks for the pictures!
But... but I cannot open them, get only "Problem loading page". :cry:
It's only my problem?
With best wishes
Grigoriy

jopaerya
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by jopaerya » 10 Aug 2011 06:06

Yes I think so , because I can open all file of Epoch3.

Regards Jos

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 10 Aug 2011 08:08

Well... it's a mystery. I found a way to open only two of all files, but most important. At least I can see the main data.

So 436(e) has all data of Mk XIX (weight, barrel lenght, range etc.). The picture look like Mk XIX too, but Mk VII on Mks II, III, V and VI carriages look like just the same. As I can see from all soursies, Mk VII was completle withdrawn from service after WWI, so only Mk XIX was avialable. And Mk VIII was similar to Mk VII as naval gun. So I suppose that 436(e) is true Mk XIX but was misidentified by Germans as an elder gun. Maybe it's due to some old artilleryman from Kaiser army who had a memory for British 6-inchers. :)

437(e) look like a naval barrel. It's performance is similar to Mk VII* and Mk XXIV with heavy charge (881 mps, 22,950 m as given in http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-45_mk7.htm). So yes, it could be Mk XXIV from Crete or even an intellegence data on UK coastal guns.
With best wishes
Grigoriy

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Clive Mortimore » 10 Aug 2011 08:49

EPOCH3 wrote:Hello all!

Please find links to a few pictures with regard to your on-going research
that I have of the 6" Mk XIX (note it is mounted to what is described as a MK VIII carriage).

also, included are some pages from KFG D50/5 as mentioned in the discussion above
for 436(e) and 437(e) equipments.

General question/thought - Could 436(e) MKVIII reference actually be confused with carriage type
meaning that 436 is the MK XIX and that it was used??? (KFG data is 1941)

Hope this helps a little - kind regards

http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_001a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_002a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/6%20i ... X_003a.jpg

http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K436_ ... g%201a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K436_ ... g%202a.jpg
http://members.cox.net/oddessa_ss/K437_e_001a.jpg
Epoch3 and all

Thanks for the links.
It is well known that Fremdengerat numbers were allocated to other nations equipment based on intelligence reports. They were modified as the war progressed as and when the Germans encountered and captured enemy weapons. It was a very comprensive system but did contain a few errors concerning pre-war British artillery. The 15.2cm K 436 (e) is a MkXIX gun on a Mk VIII carriage. Because the British used a system of different names for the ordnance and the carriage I think that confused the Germans hence the reference to the 436(e) being a MkVIII.
The 15.2 cm K 437 (e) is another possible error in the Fremdengerat system after seeing the photo Epoch has porvided. The photo shows one of the prototype 6 inch guns that Vickers were developing based on the ordnance of the MkVII and MkXXIV coast guns (they were ballistically the same but the Mk XXIV was of modern construction). There is a photo of one of these guns in Hogg's British and American Artillery of World War 2, and more can be found on the The Vickers Photographic Archive http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/ca ... =Armaments. This gun did not enter British army service. The 7.2 inch Gun Howitzer was adopted instead, on the same MkVIII carriage :) .

Another error was the 36.75 Mrs 731(e), this was the WW1 15 inch Howitzer that had been withdrawn (and scrapped) in the 1920s.
Clive

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 10 Aug 2011 09:36

Clive,
thank you!

Now just everything is clear. So 437(e) is a non-serial gun; this is an answer for "6 inch Gun 30" as it is called. 30 is simply a year!

BTW, about Mrs 731(e). In one source (http://www.slcmaquettes.com/nouveau_fichier84.html, now inactive) it is called 38cm Küstenkanone 731(e) - a coastal 15-inch gun, not a siege howitzer. I cannot say what source was used for such a indentify, but could this one be correct? Of course, 15 inch Howitzer Mk I was withdrawn from service, but 15 inch gun was active in coastal defence and it was of course known to Germans (such laaaarge thing couldn't be hidden :) ).
With best wishes
Grigoriy

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Clive Mortimore » 10 Aug 2011 14:14

Grigoriy wrote:Clive,
thank you!

Now just everything is clear. So 437(e) is a non-serial gun; this is an answer for "6 inch Gun 30" as it is called. 30 is simply a year!

BTW, about Mrs 731(e). In one source (http://www.slcmaquettes.com/nouveau_fichier84.html, now inactive) it is called 38cm Küstenkanone 731(e) - a coastal 15-inch gun, not a siege howitzer. I cannot say what source was used for such a indentify, but could this one be correct? Of course, 15 inch Howitzer Mk I was withdrawn from service, but 15 inch gun was active in coastal defence and it was of course known to Germans (such laaaarge thing couldn't be hidden :) ).
Hi Grigoriy

Ian Hogg has the 731(e) listed as the 15 inch howitzer in German Artillery of World War 2. The 15 inch coast guns were built to guard Singapore, and it is well known that they were pointing the wrong way when the invasion took place and not by the Germans :( Two of these were later installed at Dover, Wanstone Battery, 1942.

I am not sure that 731(e) was applied to these two guns as by 1942 it was highly unlikely that they would be captured. Another thing that indicates it did not apply to them is the lack of Fremdengerat numbers allocated to many coastal defense guns, not only British but other nations as well. The coast defense was a German navy responsibility and Fremdengerat numbers were given to weapons the army was likley to use and not to naval weapons as far as I am aware. The same goes for anti aircraft guns, the 3.7 inch Anti Aircraft Gun is know as the 9.4 cm Flak Vickers M39 (e), no Fremdengerat number.

It is a pitty that the source you mention is inactive.

Yours

Clive
Clive

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Grigoriy
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Re: 6 inch Mk XIX and other British 6-inch in Wehrmacht?

Post by Grigoriy » 10 Aug 2011 18:57

Clive,
my thanks for clarifications! So, one mystery less. :)

And to finish ex-British Beutenumbermysteries (such a english-german word :) ) — my last question on this theme. This question is: what a gun could be 12,7cm K 381(e) ? It is mentioned here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1280184, nearby 12,7cm K 382(e) which is 60 pdr Mk II. Maybe 381(e) is an elder 60-pounder? Or is it one more intelligence mistake?

I have a lot of similar questions on Beutenumbers for other countries, but it will be another topic. :)
With best wishes
Grigoriy

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