Beute numbers

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
nuyt
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by nuyt » 12 Aug 2011 21:16

Grigoriy wrote:
406 = 15cm sFH 406(h) = 15см/L17 howitzer Круппа 15 hw lang 17, Holland (ex- German sFH 13)
407 = 15,2cm sFH 407(h) = 152mm/L14,6 howitzer Houwitser 15 hw lang 15 Vickers, Holland (UK-purchaised BL 6 inch MK I)
15cm sFH 406(h): these were original German pieces, still in service with the German artillery in 1940. I think they meant the 8 pieces manufactured by HIH Siderius in the 1930s from Rheinmetall stocks in the Netherlands. They might have differed a bit.

nuyt
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by nuyt » 12 Aug 2011 21:19

373 = 12cm leFH 373(h) = 120mm/L14 howitzer Lichte Houwitser lang 14 (12 hw lang 14) Bofors, Holland

There were three types at least: 10 or so Krupp 12cm L12 and several Bofors and Hembrug series of the 12cm L14.
Note numbers 372 and 374 are missing, so my guess...

Where are Dutch Flak? Vickers 7,5 cm, Hembrug 7,5 cm, the older 7,5cm and 5,7 cm? The coastal guns?

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Clive Mortimore » 12 Aug 2011 21:36

Hi Nuyt,

The Fremdengerat numbers were based on intelligence reports to start with, as and when the Germans came across enemy weapons the books were modified. There are many guns on this list that were never captured, or if were taken proved not to be worth using, these remained in the books. Some had been withdrawn form their home army before the war but remained in the books. It is these grey areas that information like you have supplied will enable all of us to fine tune the list that Grigoriy has shared.
Where are Dutch Flak? Vickers 7,5 cm, Hembrug 7,5 cm, the older 7,5cm and 5,7 cm? The coastal guns?
Most Flak and coast guns were not allocated Fremdengerat numbers as they were considered Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine waepons.

Clive
Clive

nuyt
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by nuyt » 12 Aug 2011 21:49

Thanks Clive, you answered some old questions I had....

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Manuferey
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Manuferey » 14 Aug 2011 15:34

Here is an excerpt of a list of heavy "Beute" artillery dated October 1944:
http://i36.tinypic.com/2hpos8y.jpg

We can note the following:
485/585 = 19,4cm K 485/585(f) = same gun on carriage 27cm Mrs. 585(f), France
Actually 19,4 cm K485/585 with no (f) since it was a German modification (like Pak 97/38 for instance).
Interestingly, the list does not separate the K485(f) (Sf) from the K485/585. :?
503 = 20,3cm H 503(r) and 503/1(r) = 203mm/L22 and L25 howitzer M1931, USSR
The list mentions a /3, a /4 and a /5. So, most probably a /2 as well.

Also note the designation 24 cm K (E) 556/557(f)

Separately:
290 = 7,62cm IKH 290(r) and 290/1(r) = 76,2mm/L16,4 infantry gun M1927 and M1927/39 (полковая пушка образца 1927 и 1927/39 года), USSR
= 7,62cm KwK 290/1(r) = 76,2mm/L16,4 tank gun M1927/32 (танковая пушка образца 1927/32 года, КТ), USSR
Source: Kennblatter Fremden Gerats D 50/8b
I have seen a German document from 1944 with the mention of a 7,62 cm FK 290 (no (r)) :?
One of the sentences seems to indicate that the 7,62 cm FK 290 had a muzzle brake. The absence of the (r) would mean a German modification like the 7,62 cm FK 39. Could it be the same gun?
Antonio Pena lists a 7,62 cm FK290/1(r) as the ex-7,62 cm Russian M02/06. But I have found only a M02 model.

Image
Image

BTW: great job, Grigoriy ! 8-)

Emmanuel
Last edited by Manuferey on 14 Aug 2011 16:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Grigoriy
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Grigoriy » 14 Aug 2011 15:47

Hi Nuyt,

thank for the comments. I think You are completely right about GrW 279(h) - it look like they are original, french Brandts. I put in in the list in the "Version" category.
The Dutch purchased 60 mortars from the Brandt company itself in the late 1920's, and ordered 200 more to be built on a license at HIH Siderius in The Netherlands.
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... tier-van-8

PaK 153(h), as it seems to me, is unlikely Bofors gun of armoured cars. In such a case it would be KwK, not PaK. The source for statement that it is Rheinmetall PAK is Axis History Factbook (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1263).

sFH 406(h) -
The first 'new' howitzer was already introduced in 1918 when a number of German 15 cm howitzers were confiscated when retreating troops endeavoured to reach Germany over Dutch soil. In total 44 off Krupp howitzers of the [Dutch designation] type 15 lang 17 would serve in Dutch service of which 40 were still active during the May war. This howitzer was the German "Schwere Feldhaubitze 150 mm sFH13".
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... and-150-mm
With best wishes
Grigoriy

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Grigoriy
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Grigoriy » 14 Aug 2011 16:05

Hi Emmanuel !

Thank You for corrections. I'll make them in the list.

About H 503(r) - I cannot identify models that are from /2 to /5. Russian sourcies define two main models of B-4 - so called "Малой мощности" ("Maloj Moshnosti") that mean "Low Power" - a short-barreled model that was build in small numbers (31 item only), and main model B-4 with L25 barrell. But B-4 was manufactured on three weapon factories - "Bolshevik", "Barrikadi" and Novokramatorsky. In 1933-37 the first two factories had each it's own blueprints, until there was an order to use a unified set of blueprints. So we see at least two, maybe three sub-models. Then in 1936 rifling of B-4 barrels was changed - from 3 mm to 3,974 mm. And to complete the chaos, B-4 barrels were of two different construtions. So there were enough sub-models to name them differentely. :)

Update:

As concerning 290(r): I know nothing about muzzle brake on this gun. The original Russian weapon had no muzzle brake, and I had never got any data of such German modification. Maybe it was... but cannot say anything, sorry.

I had seen several times that German documents didn't add a definition of country to Beutenumber, so they may call this weapon simply 290 - it was used by Wehrmacht in such large numbers that they could see it as their own. Why it is called FK in this document I don't know. Maybe it was FK 296(r), not 290(r), in this document?..
Antonio Pena lists a 7,62 cm FK290/1(r) as the ex-7,62 cm Russian M02/06. But I have found only a M02 model.
There was no such gun as M02/06. It is the same M1902 but equipped with shield that was officially adopted in 1906. Until 1906-1912 all 3-inch M1902 got shields. And you mention FK 294(r), I suppose, not 290(r).
BTW: great job, Grigoriy !
Thank you, Emmanuel. :) I'm glad my little homework is useful. :)
With best wishes
Grigoriy

jopaerya
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by jopaerya » 14 Aug 2011 16:29

Hello

Strange is that on both page's I have about the 7.62 cm l.K.H. 290 (r)
this was the name "Kanonehaubitze" and with (r) .

Regards Jos

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Clive Mortimore » 14 Aug 2011 18:37

Manuferey wrote:
Separately:
290 = 7,62cm IKH 290(r) and 290/1(r) = 76,2mm/L16,4 infantry gun M1927 and M1927/39 (полковая пушка образца 1927 и 1927/39 года), USSR
= 7,62cm KwK 290/1(r) = 76,2mm/L16,4 tank gun M1927/32 (танковая пушка образца 1927/32 года, КТ), USSR
Source: Kennblatter Fremden Gerats D 50/8b
I have seen a German document from 1944 with the mention of a 7,62 cm FK 290 (no (r)) :?
One of the sentences seems to indicate that the 7,62 cm FK 290 had a muzzle brake. The absence of the (r) would mean a German modification like the 7,62 cm FK 39. Could it be the same gun?
Antonio Pena lists a 7,62 cm FK290/1(r) as the ex-7,62 cm Russian M02/06. But I have found only a M02 model.

Image
Image

BTW: great job, Grigoriy ! 8-)

Emmanuel
jopaerya wrote:Hello

Strange is that on both page's I have about the 7.62 cm l.K.H. 290 (r)
this was the name "Kanonehaubitze" and with (r) .

Regards Jos
Hi Emmanuel and Jos

Could the lack of (r) indicate the guns that had been modified to take German made sights and ammunition as mentioned in Chamberlain and Gander's book Weapons of the Thrid Reich as well as the muzzel brake?
Where there any other modifications done to them to change from IKH to FK or could the desigation change to FK from IKH just be a role change? The 7.5 cm Pak 40 when issued to field artillery units was referred to as the 7.5 cm FK 40.

Or is this a mistake by the clerk who typed the document :?

Just some thoughts

Clive
Clive

nuyt
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by nuyt » 14 Aug 2011 19:56

Grigoriy wrote:
PaK 153(h), as it seems to me, is unlikely Bofors gun of armoured cars. In such a case it would be KwK, not PaK. The source for statement that it is Rheinmetall PAK is Axis History Factbook (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1263).

Yes, I thought about that.

sFH 406(h) -
The first 'new' howitzer was already introduced in 1918 when a number of German 15 cm howitzers were confiscated when retreating troops endeavoured to reach Germany over Dutch soil. In total 44 off Krupp howitzers of the [Dutch designation] type 15 lang 17 would serve in Dutch service of which 40 were still active during the May war. This howitzer was the German "Schwere Feldhaubitze 150 mm sFH13".
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... and-150-mm
That site is wrong. I have seen documents in the Dutch National Archives that these weapons were obtained directly from Krupp between the armistice and Versailles, after the orders had already been placed during the war when they could not be fullfilled. ANother 8 were produced in the 1930s by HIH Siderius.
See: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... +1923-1934

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Grigoriy
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Grigoriy » 15 Aug 2011 06:32

nuyt wrote:
Grigoriy wrote:
sFH 406(h) -
The first 'new' howitzer was already introduced in 1918 when a number of German 15 cm howitzers were confiscated when retreating troops endeavoured to reach Germany over Dutch soil. In total 44 off Krupp howitzers of the [Dutch designation] type 15 lang 17 would serve in Dutch service of which 40 were still active during the May war. This howitzer was the German "Schwere Feldhaubitze 150 mm sFH13".
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... and-150-mm
That site is wrong. I have seen documents in the Dutch National Archives that these weapons were obtained directly from Krupp between the armistice and Versailles, after the orders had already been placed during the war when they could not be fullfilled. ANother 8 were produced in the 1930s by HIH Siderius.
See: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... +1923-1934
Nuyt, thank you! I'll make corrections in the list. My old posts cannot be edited so I will make new, updated lists.
With best wishes
Grigoriy

jopaerya
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by jopaerya » 15 Aug 2011 15:16

Hello

What strikes me that the gun in Emmanuel information is called a F.K. = Feldkanone
and according to my information it's a I.K.H. = Infanterie Kanonehaubitze ??

Regards Jos

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Grigoriy
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Grigoriy » 15 Aug 2011 15:51

jopaerya wrote:What strikes me that the gun in Emmanuel information is called a F.K. = Feldkanone
and according to my information it's a I.K.H. = Infanterie Kanonehaubitze ??
Hi Jos

Yes, 290 is I.K.H. So I suppose a misprint in this document. Maybe there should be not 290 but some other number which is correct with FK (296 maybe - there were many of them).
With best wishes
Grigoriy

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Manuferey
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Manuferey » 16 Aug 2011 02:05

I also think that the "FK 290" is somehow an error in the German document: the only 7.62 cm field guns fitted with muzzle brake were :
- the FK39, a FK297(r) (ex- Russian M39) modified by the Germans with the addition of a muzzle brake, thus, no (r).
- the FK288(r) series (ex- Russian ZIS-3) but the muzzle brake was already fitted to the Russian gun, thus, the (r).

So, the "FK290" of the German document would have to be indeed the FK39. :idea:

The 7.62 cm FK39 equipped many batteries of German static Infantry Divisions along the Atlantikwall.

Emmanuel

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Grigoriy
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Re: Beute numbers

Post by Grigoriy » 16 Aug 2011 17:50

Well, let's return to the lists. :)
There is a lot of version who is who. Are there any ideas about them? Am I right at least in one case? :)
With best wishes
Grigoriy

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