Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

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myt1prod
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Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 18 Jul 2012 21:08

Image

hello
In the dunes of Bray-dunes (FR) just accros the Belgian border lies the Stp. Anna. From this point the AOK15 KVA B started (Bray-dunes - Calais), but also the Maginot Line (zone des dunes) started following the Belgian border inland.
Therefore German and French bunkers can be found here. Mostly it's obvious which bunker is French and which is German, although the Germans re-used many of these French bunkers (which are known to be facing Belgium as they were built to fend of the Germans in case they planned upon invading France via the flanders coastal plaines).

One bunker though is hard to figure out... it's design (above) can not be found amongst the known French bunkers in the region, different sources state it is eighter a French or German. I can't find a regelbauten design which matches to this one.

So perhaps someone knows the true origins of this bunker and/or recognizes the design.(notice; I've made this map based on a quick drawing this afternoon. There was a lot of sand inside so I had to crawl, the backside (trobruk) was entirely overgrown and inaccesible that side and I lacked measuringtape... although it should be quite accurate. Minus the flankingwalls I guess it is about 7 to 8 meter on each side.)

awaiting your reply :D
jean

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by jopaerya » 18 Jul 2012 21:26

Hello Jean

It's a local design , only build in part of the A.W. and strangly two in the Sudwall .

Regards Jos
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 18 Jul 2012 22:02

Thx Jos
You seem to have a quick and helpfull response to everything ;)
German it is!

If you have more information on German bunkers in the Stp. Anna; always welcome. In this Stp. are also 2 similar bunkers known to be German and mostly identified as being R501. (one is accesible on two sides but emergency exit cover is gone - the other one is not accesible but still has the formsteine wall protecting the emergency exit, it is used as a panoramic viewpoint.) I crawled into the accesible one this afternoon and i'm more convinced it is a R668 (without tobruk). Any information on these bunkers?
(the interiour and placement of emergency exit pertaining to the placement of the entrance seem to match the R668 exactly, Also it had rectangular exteriourwalls instead of the rounded ones on a R501).

The number at the entrance of the bunker was 1/75a (not many people seem to know this as it is not mentioned on the net to my knowledge).

greetings, jean

grtz, jean

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by AvB » 18 Jul 2012 22:10

Hi Jean, if it has an entrance defence it's a 501, otherwise possible 668. Most of the time a 501 has a periscope opening in the roof and the dimensions are bigger. The way the concrete is poored doesn't say anything about the type of bunker. They can be square, round or both.

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by JKernwerk » 18 Jul 2012 22:59

these two are 668 or 674.
I believe we saw them both but they are closed by sand, altough they were when we visited them.
Just like the vf lag stand.
Greetings Jack.

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 18 Jul 2012 23:14

Hi AvB and Jack
Forgot to mention; indeed no entrance defence...
The 674 has a small niche right of the entrance known as (3) bereitschaftsraum fur x mann (1 i presume as it is so small), the one I visited didn't have such a bereitschaftsraum...

must be 668 then

thanks!

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by jopaerya » 19 Jul 2012 09:12

Hello

Nice to see the 668 with protection of the emercency exit of "Formsteine"

Regards Jos
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 19 Jul 2012 11:59

It is still there, a bit more overgrown. But still intact as shown in your picture, hopefully for many years to come.
On other interesting fact about this region; this must be metal detecting heaven. A lot of stuff can be found on the surface and as the dunes collapse and heavy winds shift the sand new stuff comes up now and then. Clearing up after the war wasn't done properly here it seems. Even when random diging - as I often did when I was 'younger' - you are bound to find something. We used to find many intact bullets, personalia and even an unexploded obus which we carried home on the bikerack... As it was still live - which we didn't know at the time before we were told by a Belgian soldier - we handed it over to the local 'gendarmerie' (federal police). Luckely it didn't fall of the bikerack :D

grtz, jean

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 08 Sep 2012 21:12

fieldtrip of the day; the neighboring dunes of Bray-dunes...

the accessible (for now) 668 slowly gliding down the dune due to shifting sands.
Stp Anna - 668-1.jpg
some inside views and the bunkernumber
Stp Anna - 668-2.jpg
find of the day;
above the doorway leading from the Bereitschaftsraum to the Gasschleuse, on the crossbeam, some markings of which some lettres are clearly written in the opposite direction.
'AL' and a '4' can cleary be seen, the others are more difficult to read. Which is very hard to see on the photo, but more so in real-time, is the possible lettre 'W' which would make '...WAL' and a possible date. I can't figure it out.
Stp Anna - 668-3.jpg
some more photo's of the Stp. will follow...

Jean
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 09 Sep 2012 12:11

As the Maginotline blends in with the AW in this region it is often hard to keep the two apart, although the Maginottypes seem to be no more then 3 types in the region (as far as I could establish my self; observationtype, MG-type and personeltype). The lack of accurate (to my knowledge) information about the Maginotconstructions in this region doesn't help much. Although often very usefull, I have to say fortiff.be (which has an elaborate section on the Maginotline) isn't always that accurate - by example - the two 668's are mentioned to be Maginotbunkers, this is probably due to the fact they based their research on aerialstudy without visiting the location itself.
If anyone can show me the way to accurate/original information on this part of the Maginotline, please do! Thx

In this area several strongholds can be found, of which the boundaries aren't always known/established. The following photos show only the constructions in the region of which we can assume they were part of the Stp. Anna due to their proximity to the known bunkers (2 x 668, 1 x ringstande, 1 x Vf LAG) of this Stp.
Also note I haven't placed any photo's of the second 668, as it is transformed into an observationplatform for tourist little remains to be seen, apart from the formsteine protectionwall of the emergencyexit which is already posted earlier in this topic.
Stp Anna - ringstande.jpg
Stp Anna - Vf LAG.jpg
Stp Anna - maginot observation1.jpg
...
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 09 Sep 2012 12:32

...
Stp Anna - Vf 1.jpg
Stp Anna - Vf 2.jpg
Stp Anna - Vf 3.jpg
...
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 10 Sep 2012 12:11

...
Stp Anna - masonry and concrete remains.jpg
Stp Anna - waterwell.jpg
Stp Anna - open emplacement.jpg
...
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 10 Sep 2012 12:21

...

the last ones :)
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 13 Sep 2012 12:49

hi

This (see photo/drawing) can also be found in the near proximity, although part of yet another stronghold in the area closer to the old railwayroad.
observationbunker2.jpg
observationbunker.jpg
As I already mentioned the maginotbunkers in the area can be confined to three types, none of which has anything in common with this structure. This far I couldn't find anything on this structure being German (it does look to be) or being built elsewhere.
It is some kind of one-person-observationpost. It fell over, and is now laying on it's side. Just next to It (see right photo) a small and very narrow garage-like structure. The observationpost could have been built on the side of this structure, which concrete marks on both structures seem to confirm (there are no traces of rebarbconnection between the two structures).
Does anyone know of such a structure being constructed elsewhere of can provide me with some answers?

thx
jean
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 20 Sep 2012 12:14

Done some measuring on this small observationbunker;
As it is laying on it's side and the interiour is mostly sanded I couldn't take all measurements, for instance the with of this room couldn't be measured but the radius of the observationslit indicates this must be at least 120cm.
observationbunker1.jpg
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