Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)

[myt1prod]

Hello
Fieldtrip of the day: Stp Blei at Ghyvelde (FR).
However I visited the spot a few times earlier I discovered some markings concerning ammunition which aren't mentioned on the many 'bunkersites/forum'. As this specific bunker is full of garbage, junk and debris I never gave it much notice before. The markings can be found in the only freely accessible bunker, the R134(M), along the 'Chemin Brun'.
The owner was hunting on his property so I asked permision to enter the other bunkers and masonry structures. Be warned; the sheep seek shelter in the 134's, so you are in for a surprise (as I did) if you stumble upon a sheep in the dark . Sadly enough he didn't have his keys on him to enter the 622, so it remains a mystery to many... the other 622 is still dug under by the way (also 2 small Vf next to this 622 remain to be uncovered one day). The 502 is the only accessible (with permision) bunker on the other side of the road from the 134's. Some concrete rubble in front of the 502 could indicate another small Vf standing here, amongst this rubble some beautiful tiles of which I wonder if they belonged to one of the bunkers.

R134 - handwriting "Bru..er Ku..(rt?)"

R134 - "Munition fur L.M.G. 311 (F)"

R134 - "s.M.G. 257 (F)"

...

[myt1prod]

...

R134 - "5. Ladung ---> G.Pzer."

R134 - "6. Ladung --->"

R134 - "7. Ladung --->"

...

[der bunkermann]

could the first word be brunnen?
i have found many times pencil drawing and words dating from the buildingstage in bunkers.
were in the bunkers are these word drawn?
gr, tim

[myt1prod]

Hello Tim

Hard to make out if it is "brunnen", "brucker", ... You can find the pencil drawings as shown below, also the other markings can be found in the same bunker.

134.png (34.29 KiB) Viewed 1970 times

grtz jean

[JKernwerk]

Ehh why the (M) behind the 134?
Because it is for ammo?
Only when a 134 has a different kind of use (Sani or Kuchen) the suffix is mentioned in the name.
JK

[DaSk]

Hello.

May be

"Munition fur L. M. G 311 (f)" = Ammunition for light machine gun mod 311 French (Germany designation for Mitrailleuse de 7.5 mm mle 1931)

"s. M. G. 257 (F)" = heavy machine gun mod 257 French (Germany designation for Mitrailleuse 'Hotchkiss" mle 1914)

"Ladung" = charge or stock of ammunition?

"G. Pzer" = anti tank grenades ?

Regards

DaSk

[myt1prod]

Hi JK
I noticed some people always mentioning the letter concerning the 134's use, to avoid confusion perhaps... so I did the same .

Hi DaSk
I also looked up some info on the possible weapons for which this amunition was used. It's not easy when you're not familiary with the subject. But when searching for the calibre .311, I found the Bren MkI which fits this type of ammo. If I understand correctly the Bren MkI (claimed to be the best lmg of ww2??) was originally intended for the .303 British amunition, but it also handles .311 which was also procuced by the french...
As I have no knowledge on the subject I'm not shure... would be nice however to know exactly to which guns these ammotypes refer.

thx
jean

[JKernwerk]

Hi Jean,
There is no need for that.
Just use it if it is a special one like the ones used as Kitchen or first aid station.
There is just more confusion if people make things up!
Greetings Jack.

[TH]

311 and 257 aren't calibres, but the German Beutenummern.
The (f) indicates that these weapons were captured from the French forces.

Edit:
According to this thread:
7,5 mm Hotchkiss Mle1914 = MG 257(f)
7,5 mm Mle 1931 = KpfwMG 311(f)

[AvB]

Dask is right. It's not the caliber but the type number the Germans gave to foreign weapons they used. (Beutewaffen). Search for it jean.

[myt1prod]

Thx everybody
I knew that the (f) stands for the origins of the Beutewaffe, what I didn't know was that the Germans also renamed these weapons (which wasn't the case for captured artillery if I'm correct??). Not knowing I originally searched for weapons with the original typenumber 311 and 257, when that turned up nothing I started searching for calibres, that's how I found the Bren as a result (using http://www.armeetpassion.com/sommaire.html).
Thanks for putting me on the right track!

and Jack
I will never put another M after the 134 again

jean

[TUS]

Hi Jean

This was also the case regarding artillery. All Beutewaffen received a German designation and a number.

A quick search here on AHF gives you a list.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ilit=Beute

Brgds Tønnes

[myt1prod]

hi Tønnes
thanks for the link.
Artillery and guns aren't really my main interest, but when finding bullets or in this case markings concerning ammunition it is always nice to investigate and learn.
thx

[myt1prod]

Now I seem to have the attention of the weaponexperts amongst you...
perhaps somebody knows what this was used for (it measures about 15cm to 15cm and, the ends are slightly bend and in the middle is a pin);

found these just a few metres away from this (wellknown) gunemplacement in the Stp. Arnika, also in Ghyvelde.

jean

[DaSk]

Hi

I am not sure but for me those things looks like some parts of AA gun base.

Regards

DaSk