Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Now I seem to have the attention of the weaponexperts amongst you...
perhaps somebody knows what this was used for (it measures about 15cm to 15cm and, the ends are slightly bend and in the middle is a pin);

arnika art1.jpg

found these just a few metres away from this (wellknown) gunemplacement in the Stp. Arnika, also in Ghyvelde.

arnika art2.jpg

jean

Hi myt1prod,
Please compare Your foto with an article related to Flak emplacements:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/ger ... izsen.html
If You have any doubts it would be helpful to make simple sketch with few basic dimensions-this is the best way to find out: which gun could fit this emplacement.

Brgds
Andrzej

[myt1prod]

Hi Andrzej

Thanks for the link, it will take some time to investigate but this link will certainly proof usefull once I've done some measuring on the spot.
Underneath, a small photo I found of a gun standing in Ghyvelde. Sadly the baseplate of the possible emplacement is out of view, nore is it mentioned where exactly this gun was standing and which type it is. Of the three known positions in Ghyvelde de trees as shown in the picture do resemble the ones standing in the Stp. Arnika at the time (using photo's of operation Dynamo as a reference). Not sure if it's the same location though.

canon ghyvelde.jpg (26.19 KiB) Viewed 1728 times

perhaps someone recognises this gun immediatly, otherwise it will take me some time to find out my self.

thanks 4 helping out
jean

[TH]

Now I seem to have the attention of the weaponexperts amongst you...
perhaps somebody knows what this was used for (it measures about 15cm to 15cm and, the ends are slightly bend and in the middle is a pin);

arnika art1.jpg

Possibly bases of iron barbed wire poles? The actual poles must have been cut off then.

[jopaerya]

Hello Jean

The gun looks a French 95 mm G , maybe on the other side of the border ??

Regards Jos

[Zünder]

@myt1prod: the steel "crosses" you found were used to protect primers of shellcases.
Normally, there would be a piece of rubber where the pin is, the clasps fit over the rim of the shellcase.

These were used by a lot of countries, germany used them (called "schutzfeder", mainly used by the navy), the British used them and i think the french as well.

Regarding the "6-Ladung" in one of the pictures: a lot of guns used bag charges, depending on the range 1 or more charges were used.
Seems to me, that "6-ladung" simply means that they stored nr. 6 charges at that particular spot.
"G-Pzgr": Gewehr-Panzergranate,30 mm HEAT rifle grenade.

What i would like to know: what kind of guns were stationed there ?

Zünder,


www,wk2ammo.com

[jopaerya]

Hi Zünder

Begin 1944 there were 4 x 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) from the 7./18 ( Luftwaffe Feld Division )

Regards Jos

[myt1prod]

Hi Zünder

Thanks for the info on the metal crosses. My first thought when I found them was in the same direction, but this would mean there had to be a (+/-) 15cm gun in the area. The triangular gun emplacement (possible FlaK) shown in the picture above seemed to be to small to carry such a gun. Also the smaller gun emplacement next to it couldn't fit a 15cm gun. Also, the Stp Arnika - where I found these crosses - is known to be a headquarterposition without heavy gun emplacements. Therefore I thought it could be something else as well.

2 possibilities - in my opinion - about the origins of the schutzfeder (found about 30 in the same spot):
- they could have belonged to the Stp. Aal just 100 metres to the east of the metal crosses, this Stp. was known to have 4 French fieldhowitzers 15,5cm s.F.H.414
- or they belonged to a gun used by the Checz with held positions here in the Stp Arnika during the siege of Dunkirk (44-45)

The Stp. Blei - where I found the ammunition markings shown at the beginning of this thread - is known to have following guns:
1942: 4 x 10.5cm gun
27/03/43: 4 x Le.F.H. 18
20/06/43: no guns present
01/06/44: 4 x French fieldhowitzer 15,5cm s.F.H.414
1944: 6 x 15,5 cm s.F.H.133
(source: bunkers.be / "De Atlantik Wall" by F. Philippart, D. Peeters, Alain van Geetruyen)
In the last fase of 1944 two of the six guns had to be standing freely I guess, because only four gunemplacements where known to stand here. They stood in a rather strange configuration regarding the position of the bunkers of this stronghold. I made this quick example based upon aerial photo's of 1948 (http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/actualite ... istoriques).

Google Earth

Grtz
jean

[myt1prod]

Hello Jean

The gun looks a French 95 mm G , maybe on the other side of the border ??

Regards Jos

Thanks Jos
You mean on the Belgian side then; the domain Cabourg could indeed be another posibility (same trees).
It could of course also be in the Stp. Aal just next to Arnika, although now much denser forest it could have looked the same as in the photo at the time.
... so little appears to be known about the borderregion Franco-Belge (same for Stp. Anna, Ahlen, Ahrweiler, ...)

Do you have more specifics on this gun type? Googling for "95MM G canon" turns up a lot of photocamera's but no 'real' canons
grtz, jean

[jopaerya]

Hello Jean

The exact name is "Canon G de côte de 95 mm Mle 1893"

Regards Jos

[myt1prod]

Hello Jean

The exact name is "Canon G de côte de 95 mm Mle 1893"

Regards Jos

Tank You Jos!! for the quick response
grtz jean

[Zünder]

@Jos and Jean: 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) used bag charges, so there was no need for a primer cover/cross.

If the cross is approx. 15 cm . then it was probably not for a 15 cm case. (the base of a 15 cm case is always wider).


Zünder,


www.wk2ammo.com

[myt1prod]

thx Zünder
when I return to measure the gun emplacement, I will also take exact measurements of these primercovers... perhaps I can even find some inscriptions underneath the rust, which could be usefull to identify its origin.
jean

[myt1prod]

find of the day...

obvious part of allied ammunition. Known Allied forces in the area are British, French and Belgian Troops during Operation Dynamo and Czech and Canadian troops during the siege of Dunkirk.
It's markings; "s - remove before firing - N°152 I - WBL/C", inside there is a screwthread.

Also found a small bulletcasing for a revolver with headstamp "9mm - H 'arrow up' N - 43 (or 4.3)" at the spot of the 'shutzfeder' (metal crosses). These crosses measure exactly 12cm accros (not 15 like mentioned earlier, which was a guess), one of the clips at each end fuctions as some kind op 'easy-spring-release' to easily remove the shutzfeder from the actual shell (the other three clips are sturdy). No inscriptions were found on these shutzfeder.

jean

[myt1prod]

Plan of the (FlaK)gunemplacement at Stp. Arnika.

The smaller gunemplacement laying next to this one, which I mentioned before in this thread, could in fact possibly be the same one but partialy destroyed and due to heavy overgrowth unpossible to measure.

now, based upon these measurements, the quest for the gun(s) standing here continues

jean

[AW]

I made this quick example based upon aerial photo's of 1948 (http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/actualite ... istoriques).

gun emplacements Stp. Blei.jpg

Grtz
jean

morning,

what are the red circles on your overview... the flak OB´s?

greetz
Alex