Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
Hi Alex
handling two seperate Stp. in one topic must be getting complicated... :roll:
The red circles on the GE-aerial you're refering to are the open gunemplacements of the Stp. Blei intended for the four fieldhowitzers 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) standing here (or other guns during serveral occupations of the Stp.)
The FlaK-emplacements, mentioned in this topic, are to be found in the Stp. Arnika (Ghyvelde). Only 2 of these 'triangular' Flak- emplacements can be found here, one heavely overgrown and the one as shown in the picture and groundplan here above.
The 2 FlaK emplacements at Stp. Arnika are situated here: Grtz
jean
handling two seperate Stp. in one topic must be getting complicated... :roll:
The red circles on the GE-aerial you're refering to are the open gunemplacements of the Stp. Blei intended for the four fieldhowitzers 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) standing here (or other guns during serveral occupations of the Stp.)
The FlaK-emplacements, mentioned in this topic, are to be found in the Stp. Arnika (Ghyvelde). Only 2 of these 'triangular' Flak- emplacements can be found here, one heavely overgrown and the one as shown in the picture and groundplan here above.
The 2 FlaK emplacements at Stp. Arnika are situated here: Grtz
jean
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
... ah!
but I am still wounder about your gun positions.
only the OB at the 134 from your map I know... but In my opinion this the one furthest west.
greetz
Alex
but I am still wounder about your gun positions.
only the OB at the 134 from your map I know... but In my opinion this the one furthest west.
greetz
Alex
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
I've found many versions on the possible locations of the former gunemplacements at the Stp. Blei, amongst which the one I think is correct when researching serveral historical aerialphoto's of the area. Although some questionmarks remain to me also... At the most western emplacement there was clearly standing a structure at the time which could match a R134, although no confirmation on that, but it could explain the rather strange positioning of the emplacements.
2. not as visible on this aerial but more so on other historical aerials, although sometimes it seems to be positioned a bit slightly to the west (near the farm)
3. nowadays a drinkingpond for horses (still following part of the possible emplacement)
4. nowadays only cropmarks indicate it's possible position
5. a possible bunker (134??) standing here at the time
jan
1. still present gun emplacement2. not as visible on this aerial but more so on other historical aerials, although sometimes it seems to be positioned a bit slightly to the west (near the farm)
3. nowadays a drinkingpond for horses (still following part of the possible emplacement)
4. nowadays only cropmarks indicate it's possible position
5. a possible bunker (134??) standing here at the time
jan
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
Hallo,
the 'cross' prime covers were used for British 18 Pdrs, they had also loops for attaching webbing slings for carrying
Cnock
the 'cross' prime covers were used for British 18 Pdrs, they had also loops for attaching webbing slings for carrying
Cnock
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
thanks Cnock,
Possibly belonging to the BEF dating back to the retreat and evacuation on Dunkirk (operation Dynamo, mai 1940); according to wikipedia the 18pounders were used by the British Empire, Russian Empire, Ireland, Finland and Estonia between. The British, the BEF (British Expeditionary Force), lost about 216 pieces of them during 1940...
therefore also possible some were captured by the German and re-used at this location (Stp. Arnika)?? ...or perhaps, by the end of the war, the Czech and/or Canadian troops - which held positions at the Stp. Arnika - were using these guns??
sadly there are no markings to be found on the "primer-crosses", so their origin remains unsolved. Perhaps someone knows about the guns used by the several axis and allied troops which held this position...
jean
Possibly belonging to the BEF dating back to the retreat and evacuation on Dunkirk (operation Dynamo, mai 1940); according to wikipedia the 18pounders were used by the British Empire, Russian Empire, Ireland, Finland and Estonia between. The British, the BEF (British Expeditionary Force), lost about 216 pieces of them during 1940...
therefore also possible some were captured by the German and re-used at this location (Stp. Arnika)?? ...or perhaps, by the end of the war, the Czech and/or Canadian troops - which held positions at the Stp. Arnika - were using these guns??
sadly there are no markings to be found on the "primer-crosses", so their origin remains unsolved. Perhaps someone knows about the guns used by the several axis and allied troops which held this position...
jean
Stp Blei - Vf ringstand found
This afternoon I found a ringstand at the Stp Blei.
it seems to be a regelbau type, so must be a Vf ringstand. The ringstand is mostly dug under and filled with sand, earlier it was hidden underneath the overgrowth which has been removed since my last visit there, as I never noticed this ringstand before.
The wall facing the entrance measures about 190cm (the exteriour protection wall measures 120cm and leaves 80 cm passage towards the entrance). The distance between the ringstand-opening and the entrancewall is about 195cm. The ring measures 108cm at it's widest point and 103cm at it's narrowest point. Attached on the outside is a metal rack which measures about 66cm on 45cm (possibly to fit an ammobox??). in the corners of the 8-sided ring small holes can be seen which possibly served to attach the carriage of the weapon which was installed here.
notice: the ringstand can be found north of the chemin Brun in between the western 622 (used as hunting cabin) and the 502. Beware the owners don't take kindly any visitors who tresspass without asking... and asking always results in 'no' as an answer. Enter at your own risk and keep in mind hunters are active here even outside the huntingseason as it is a private domain
it seems to be a regelbau type, so must be a Vf ringstand. The ringstand is mostly dug under and filled with sand, earlier it was hidden underneath the overgrowth which has been removed since my last visit there, as I never noticed this ringstand before.
The wall facing the entrance measures about 190cm (the exteriour protection wall measures 120cm and leaves 80 cm passage towards the entrance). The distance between the ringstand-opening and the entrancewall is about 195cm. The ring measures 108cm at it's widest point and 103cm at it's narrowest point. Attached on the outside is a metal rack which measures about 66cm on 45cm (possibly to fit an ammobox??). in the corners of the 8-sided ring small holes can be seen which possibly served to attach the carriage of the weapon which was installed here.
notice: the ringstand can be found north of the chemin Brun in between the western 622 (used as hunting cabin) and the 502. Beware the owners don't take kindly any visitors who tresspass without asking... and asking always results in 'no' as an answer. Enter at your own risk and keep in mind hunters are active here even outside the huntingseason as it is a private domain
- dirk Peeters
- Member
- Posts: 6568
- Joined: 24 May 2011, 21:18
- Location: Heist op den Berg Belgium
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
hello Jean
also new to me
can you give a sketch with the measurements and more pictures please
i think i ll have a look in the near future
also new to me
can you give a sketch with the measurements and more pictures please
i think i ll have a look in the near future
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
Hello
It's a Ringstand Bf61a I think.
Grtz
Dirk T.
It's a Ringstand Bf61a I think.
Grtz
Dirk T.
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
dirk I could only measure the pertruding parts, of which I already gave the measurements above;
ring = 108 à 103 cm, the 8 sides variate between 39 and 45 cm
rim on entrancewall = 190cm (possibly only the rim to keep the sand out of the entrance... but the construction can't be much wider noticing the small 'hill' in which the construction is embeded)
protectionwall = 20 cm broad on top with sloped faces, so possibly about 40cm at it's widest. longest wall measures 140 and shortest 100 cm leaving a 80cm passage to the doorway
ring = 108 à 103 cm, the 8 sides variate between 39 and 45 cm
rim on entrancewall = 190cm (possibly only the rim to keep the sand out of the entrance... but the construction can't be much wider noticing the small 'hill' in which the construction is embeded)
protectionwall = 20 cm broad on top with sloped faces, so possibly about 40cm at it's widest. longest wall measures 140 and shortest 100 cm leaving a 80cm passage to the doorway
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
inside the most eastern 134 ammunitionbunker I also made some new discoveries. I already discovered some texts on the weapons stored in this bunker in the western room as shown at the beginning of this topic...
In the eastern room I noticed three quite identical black squares on the wall which made me wonder why that is so... so i carefully scratched one of them and it appeared to be some chalk applied to the walls with some text underneath... so I scratched the surface of all three of them.
Underneath the chalk I found the text 'Stggr' with different numbers in front. in the upper right corner some red dots which seemed a fantasy at first, but as they are present with each of the three textmarkings, they must have a meaning.
could 'stggr' stand for stielhandgranate (althoug in that case it would rather be 'sthgr')??... fact is that the numbers possibly indicate the number of 'stggr' stacked allong each of the three walls inside the room... but what could be the meaning of the dots???
This room suffered an attack which damaged the text and chalk painted over it on one wall... so we can assume that the Germans themselves overpainted these texts... meaning at a certain time during the war this room no longer served as an ammo-storage and got another purpose... possibly as a personelshelter??? Due to the many bullet holes we can assume no ammo was present inside this room at time of the allied attack; as soldiers generally shoot at other soldiers we can assume that this room was manned during the allied taking of this stronghold.
Can anyone provide more info on the exact meaning of the text 'stgrr' and the dots next to it??
In the eastern room I noticed three quite identical black squares on the wall which made me wonder why that is so... so i carefully scratched one of them and it appeared to be some chalk applied to the walls with some text underneath... so I scratched the surface of all three of them.
Underneath the chalk I found the text 'Stggr' with different numbers in front. in the upper right corner some red dots which seemed a fantasy at first, but as they are present with each of the three textmarkings, they must have a meaning.
could 'stggr' stand for stielhandgranate (althoug in that case it would rather be 'sthgr')??... fact is that the numbers possibly indicate the number of 'stggr' stacked allong each of the three walls inside the room... but what could be the meaning of the dots???
This room suffered an attack which damaged the text and chalk painted over it on one wall... so we can assume that the Germans themselves overpainted these texts... meaning at a certain time during the war this room no longer served as an ammo-storage and got another purpose... possibly as a personelshelter??? Due to the many bullet holes we can assume no ammo was present inside this room at time of the allied attack; as soldiers generally shoot at other soldiers we can assume that this room was manned during the allied taking of this stronghold.
Can anyone provide more info on the exact meaning of the text 'stgrr' and the dots next to it??
- dirk Peeters
- Member
- Posts: 6568
- Joined: 24 May 2011, 21:18
- Location: Heist op den Berg Belgium
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
yep Dirkdterrier wrote:Hello
It's a Ringstand Bf61a I think.
Grtz
Dirk T.
i think also
thanks jean for the pictures
Dirk
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
As far as i know, one of the shells shot by the 15,5 cm S.F.H. 414 (f) was the french Obus de 155 mm explosif en fonte aciérée mod 1915.myt1prod wrote:
Can anyone provide more info on the exact meaning of the text 'stgrr' and the dots next to it??
Fonte aciérée shells (cast iron) were known as "Stahlgussgranaten" in german, or in short "Stg Gr".
Zünder,
www.wk2ammo.com
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
thanks Zünder!
do you have a clue on why the red dots were added? the one text counts 4 dots and the other two texts count 5 dots
do you have a clue on why the red dots were added? the one text counts 4 dots and the other two texts count 5 dots
Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
Only logical explanation i can come up with is weightclass.myt1prod wrote:thanks Zünder!
do you have a clue on why the red dots were added? the one text counts 4 dots and the other two texts count 5 dots
On french 155 mm shells you can find a series of dots indicating the weightclass, see scan.
Zünder,
www.wk2ammo.com
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Re: Stp Blei - ammunition markings (Ghyvelde)
seems logical to me
thanks for your help
thanks for your help