Belgian AA guns

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi all

In the Allied and Neutral States section a chap called JBelgium showed a link to pre-war Belgian army magazines. One of these showed an 8.8 cm Flak L/45 (Kruup) in service with the Belgian army. I take it these were WW1 guns taken over by the Belgium Army. He suggest in this post http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1723998 that they were relined to fire 75mm ammunition. Anyone know more information on these guns. The M27 was the Belgian designed gun with the very large shield on a low loader trailer look mounting. The M34, I think he means the French 75mm CDA M1932, which the Belgian Army called the M36 (as did the Germans 7.5cm Flak M36[f]).

[Manuferey]

Clive,

The 75 mm FRC M27 (7,5 cm Flka M27(b) for the Germans) was indeed a 8,8 cm Flak L/45 realigned to 75 mm. The Belgian M36 was the French M32 with at least a different type of tires(or tyres for you ).

The C75 DTCA M34 could have been the French 75 mm CA Mle 1917 modernized in 1934 as the 75 mm CA Mle 17/34.

There is also the "mystery" of the Belgian reuse in 1939-1940 of German 8,8 cm K-Flak from WW1. See pictures posted in the following thread in April and June 2012:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1695788

and in particular:





Could these 8,8 cm K-Flak guns have been also religned to 75 mm (to use the same 75 mm AA ammunition)? And could they have been C75 DTCA M34 by the Belgian Army? The muzzle seems at least to have been clearly modified.

This would then explained the reuse of this gun by the Germans (see pictures on the same thread as mentioned above). But what would have the Germans "beute (b)" designation? That would give us a clue on the caliber (7,5 or 8,8 cm).

Emmanuel

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Emmanuel

Thanks it clears up a lot. I have not seen a bute name for the ex Belgian 8.8 cm Flak L/45. Has anyone ever come across a unkown 7.5 cm Flak (b) and asumed it to be either a 75mm M27, or M34 or M36? Or a 8.8 cm Flak (b) and thought it was a mistake?

What was the Belgian army's name for the gun? Knowing that might help

Edit: I have just looke up Dr Leo Niehotster's OB for the Belgium Army 1940 and there are no 88mm AA guns all are 75mm at Corps level and a few British 3.7 inch around Brussels.

Clive

[ArmyDicked]

The Japanese captured a bunch of guns from the Chinesse, especially the old German (1905?) 88mm SK30 L/45 and Borfors M29 75mm guns and employed both the type 4 75mm AA gun and the Type 5 75mm L56.4 guns. I have tried to match it to the base line German WWII gun, the PAK/KWK/STUK 40 75mm L48 gun as far as penetration tables go, and I can't find anything. The closest I found was a mention of the Type 4 75mm AA gun as penetrating 75mm@1K meters which is wretched considering the PAK 40 75mm L48 could penetrate 94mm at 1K meters. Why did the Japanese feel necessary to reverse engineer OLD Imperial Germany Naval guns/Belgian guns when Germany could have given them the plans to their PAK 40 75mm L48, PAK 41 75mm L70 FLAK 36 88mm L56 or KWK 43 88mm L71. How come the Germans rarely shared technology with the Japanese? Their Carriers & Long Lance torpedeos were SOTA as were Germany's tanks, guns, missles and Jet Aircraft?

[SES]

Hi,
We had a discussion on this gun here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=193186
is it correctly understood that 8.8 cm Flak L/45 (Kruup) relined to 75 mm = Canon anti-aérien de 75 mm FRC Mle 1927 = 7,5 cm Flak (b) ?
bregds
SES

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Ses

The ex German 8.8 cm L/45 (Krupp) was not the 75mm FRC Mle 1927. In the photo Emmanuel posted earlier in the thread there is a line of M1927s in the background with their huge shields. The guns in the foreground are the Krupp built ones without a shield. And to the side are some ex French 75mm CA Mle17.

Clive

[Manuferey]

My understanding is that the Belgians relined 8,8 cm SK L/45 guns in M.P.L C/13, obtained in 1918, to 75 mm and adapted them to trailers. They gave the new guns the official designation "Canon-remorque de 75 M.27/DTCA".
Rudi Rolf in particular gives the "beute" designation 7,5 cm Flak M27(b).

The same Krupp 8,8 cm SK L/45 gun in M.P.L C/13 also strongly inspired the Krupp 8,8 cm K-Flak. The guns without the shields on the picture I posted earlier are 8,8 cm K-Flak (possibly also relined to 75 mm by the Belgians - this is an open question)

Emmanuel

[SES]

Hi Clive and Emmanuel,
Many thanks for your responses.
Do you by any chance have additional pictures of the Canon anti-aérien de 75 mm FRC Mle 1927?
bregds
SES

[Clive Mortimore]

My understanding is that the Belgians relined 8,8 cm SK L/45 guns in M.P.L C/13, obtained in 1918, to 75 mm and adapted them to trailers. They gave the new guns the official designation "Canon-remorque de 75 M.27/DTCA".
Rudi Rolf in particular gives the "beute" designation 7,5 cm Flak M27(b).

The same Krupp 8,8 cm SK L/45 gun in M.P.L C/13 also strongly inspired the Krupp 8,8 cm K-Flak. The guns without the shields on the picture I posted earlier are 8,8 cm K-Flak (possibly also relined to 75 mm by the Belgians - this is an open question)

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanuel

So what I have been thinking is the 8.8 cm FlaK L/45 Krupp is in fact 8.8 cm K-Flak. The Mle 27 was rebuilt from a naval gun, the 8.8 cm SK L/45. Life is now becoming clearer.

Still did the Belgains re line the 8.8 cm K-Flak? It is clear they had them and that they had done something with the barrel because their guns have a collar on the muzzel. The guns retained by Germany did not have this collar.

Clive

[Manuferey]

Clive,

What I'm not sure is if the designation I use in 8,8 cm SK L/45 in MPL C/13 is correct and if it is not in fact 8,8 cm Flak L/45 in MPL C/13 since it was indeed used as a Flak gun. See pictures and captions in the following webpage from navweaps.com: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.htm which writes Flak L/45 for the top picture but SK L/45 for the drawing of the same gun.

Emmanuel

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

75mm FRC Mle 1927

Image from EBay
Sturm78

[peeved]

From exp. eBay.de auctions N:o 251218675855 & 140957746407.

Markus

[Manuferey]

There is a very interesting Belgian website that describes in particular the Belgian AA defense organization (DTCA) in 1940.

One page with pictures of the 3.7 in (94 mm) Vickers AA guns in Belgian service. We can see that there are one of the mobile versions:
https://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.co ... uchtafweer

One page about the 1st AA regiment:
http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com/1e+DTCA

And one page about the 2nd AA regiment:
https://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com/2e+DTCA

In terms of 75 mm AA guns, the following guns are mentioned and pictures of some of them are shown on the webpages:

C75 DTCA SF = a French 75 mm Mle 1897 on a static platform (there is a picture of this gun on this webpage:
https://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.co ... uchtafweer)

C75 DTCA M27 CR = 75mm FRC Mle 1927 (pictures on this thread)

C75 DTCA M36 FRC = 75 mm Mle 1936 FRC, the well-known version of the French 75 mm CA Mle 1932 built under licence by Cockerill.

C75 DTCA M28 : a picture of this gun is shown on the page of the 2nd regiment (https://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com/2e+DTCA)
It looks like a French 75 mm Mle 1917. It could be a 75 mm Mle 97 modernized in 1928 but not with the Mle 1928 Schneider barrel since the picture still shows the original barrel (assuming the caption of the picture is correct) .

C75 DTCA M34 = no picture shown on the Belgian website but I suspect that it is a French 75 mm Mle 17/34 either with the original 75 mm Mle 1897 barrel or the newest Mle 1928 barrel.

If the M28 and M34 are indeed 75 mm Mle 1917 or Mle 1917/34, then, there is still no mention of our mysterious AA gun derived from the 8,8 cm K-Flak.

Can someone confirm or correct the M28 and M34 types?

Emmanuel

[JBbelgium]

http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/category/kraje/be/

This is a Polish website that also has information about the Belgians. There are pictures of the 75mm AA guns as well.
According to this site and Google translate :

http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/plot75mm1936-be/
The Belgian C75 DTCA M36 FRC is the Belgian produced version of the French Canon de 75 mm DCA Mle 1932. The French gun was designed by Atelier de Construction de Bourges. The Belgian guns wer made by Fonderie Royale des Canons (FRC).

http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/plot75mm1927-be/
The Belgian 75 mm FRC Mle 1927 was built by Fonderie Royale des Canons (FRC). They were ex-German Krupp 88 mm guns recalibrated to the Belgian 75x518R ammo.

http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/plot75mm1934-be/
The 75 mm Schneider/FRC Mle 1934 is a modernised French gun from WW1. It was changed to the Belgian 75x518R ammo.

However the picture on the Polish site of the 75 mm Schneider/FRC Mle 1934 looks a lot like the C75 DTCA M28 LR from here https://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com/2e+DTCA
And the 75 mm FRC Mle 1927 is the gun with the large gunshield an not the ex-German 88 that didn't have a gunshield.



The AA guns were used for ground defence against armoured cars on a few occasions.
http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com/1e+DTCA

The 2nd battery, 1st group, 1st DTCA regiment with C75 DTCA M34 guns fired at armoured cars on the 11th of May. They were attached to the Cavalry Coprs.

The 4th battery C40 Bofors from 1DTCA put a gun in an anti-tank position on the 18th and 24th of May when they received reports about German armoured cars.

75mm field artillery guns were also used for anti-tank defence on several occasions. But I don't know if the AA guns and field guns had AP rounds.

[JBbelgium]

So if the C75 DTCA M34 turns out to be the ex-German 88 after all, then we have Belgian gunners firing ex-FlaK 88's at German armoured cars.

Madness