632 and 648

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TH
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Re: 632 and 648

#46

Post by TH » 12 Nov 2012, 01:51

dirk Peeters wrote:for arthur
since you don t care
why should i care
you have your opinion which is perhaps the right one , i have mine
perhaps take a meter with you and look after the typenheft afterwards like we do
i cant give you the exaxt locations because i don t know the type
measured in brest , lorient , st nazaire and danemark 9 turretbunkers unknown type because the dont fit the typenheft plans
have found plans for belgium and walcheren and again no match
dirk
Why unknown type? According to German documents the Danish bunkers are of type 632.
It's not surprising that the actual measurements don't exactly match the Typenheft, because the undetailed Typenheft drawings are not construction plans.
J. Andersen, R. Rolf, 2006 wrote:Standard design bunkers of the same type are often regarded to be executed identically. That is, however, not the case. The Regelbauten as published centrally in type books had a type number with its function and a number of nominal quantities of building material and equipment. These data gave a basis for choice and construction planning. When these were approved an application was sent to the central engineers office that worked out detailed drawings of each individual bunker wherein the local geographical and tactical situation was taken into account.
Going by the Typenheft, the defining characteristic of 632/648 seems to be given by the choice of turret. The turret type then dictates the layout of the turret room (height of the room, number of air filters, ...). So, if a 3-embrasure turret was used, the bunker very likely is a 632, otherwise if a (Czech) 1-embrasure turret was used it very likely is a 648. You might not find any other conclusive differences (but of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't look for them).

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#47

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 08:08

Wow Wonderfull info Thanks
ok some 632 have periscopes
here picture of Hennestrand
632 05 01  14 06 97 (2)  .jpg
Your explanations seems very logical , i know from the beginning it has much to do with the turrets
explains also the periscopes
What you thinks of two types of plans for the 632 , seems to me logical that we can consider a first type and then a second generation of this model (thats also just a theory)
the ventilation seems ok but than we have the one in Bodo (strange thing that one , constructed as a "mirror ", next the emergency exit , is located on wrong side of the bunker (chimney side)
any photos of other 632 in danemark (inside)
The cuppolas i think we can leave to Arthur he has the knowledge of them
Now we must compare pictures of the inside of thes bunkers
here the ventilation side of Dieppe
00.jpg
and the rare block above the door (unusual design for 648/632 and 637/637a)
00 1.jpg
Dirk


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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#48

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 08:19

another thing thats intruiging
We have a ventilation entrance at the Tobruk (We see that also on 648/632 and 637/637a and also on the 634
But where does that stand for in the 632... isn t any ventilation on that side of the bunker ....
00.jpg
Is that also the case in Danemark ?
Dirk

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Re: 632 and 648

#49

Post by AvB » 12 Nov 2012, 14:57

Dirk don't you have a reaction to TH's post?

Say for example you find this unknown ruined bunker somewhere, and it has normal ceiling height, you have to measure the diameter of the shaft. If it's 1420mm you got yourself a Czech cupola (648), if it's bigger, or you have a concrete floor like the ones in Denmark like Tønnes mentioned, you got a Dreischartenturm (632).

Some differences in ventilation. In a 632 both HES go into one tube in the wall.

Here's 632 Janval dieppe:
Image

632 Fjell:

Image

In 648 one HES goes to the turret, the other one into the crew room and entrance defence.

648 Condé:
Image

648 Sémaphore Guidel:
Image

The 632 of Søndervig is different, but it has a 20P7.

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#50

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 15:45

i have placed the reaction
also to TH which i thank
Now we are going somewhere When we put pictures
But arthur wait with the 648 ok?

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Re: 632 and 648

#51

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 15:51

Ok Fjell and two at Dieppe (the third there i have not visited) are for me alike
15 KVA E Die 14.jpg
Die 14 has a periscope
same layout in beds and ventilation
die 10
15 KVA E Die 010.jpg
also another question
Has the one at Fjell also this niche ?
00.jpg
Dirk

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Re: 632 and 648

#52

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 16:15

here we see the differnces
blue is original measurements
red actual measurements
red rounds are main differences
Never saw an original plan with so much modifications
For me the " original type" isn t constructed at all
00.jpg
Dirk

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Re: 632 and 648

#53

Post by jopaerya » 12 Nov 2012, 17:00

Hello Dirk

Your drawing is a early model that was never build as many others ( 3 x models of the 611 ) and
Dirk there are as you know a lot of bunkers there were only drawingboard model and were never
build in A.W. , here you got the later version from a Typenheft and it looks to me the same as
your drawings with the typical nische in the gasslock . Futher more the 632 are not all the same
because not all 632 use the same 3-Schartenturm so local adjustments were made .

Drawing = Jan Lugtmeijer

Regards Jos
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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#54

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 17:04

Yes Jos
I ll think you have given the right answer
You know a strange thing ? a 643 which is a 632 with 3m50 thick walls has an interieor plan that fit s the 632 we known in Dieppe and Fjell ...
the more i think of it the more i ll think the typenheftplan of the 632 is anly a "prototype" and thus never constructed
Strange for so many years no one has fallen over it ...
Ditk

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#55

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 17:14

632 01.jpg
632 02.jpg
also one thing i forgot all the time
These plans i ll show above have no Zeichnung nrs written on them ...
your plan Jos has the zeichnung nr 304 and that one fits
another thing how important these zeichnung nrs are ...
So we have two plans for a "pre632"
Also intresting no ?

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#56

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 17:17

fully convinced with the solution of Jos
red rounds
it all fits
00 a.jpg
00 a.jpg (83.65 KiB) Viewed 692 times
Dirk

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Re: 632 and 648

#57

Post by jopaerya » 12 Nov 2012, 17:19

Oke Dirk

So we can see in the gasslock if it's a 632 or a 648 , so the awnser to your first quistion is no .
The 632 and 648 are not the same bunker , the basic form looks the same but there are differences .
Do we have a good drawing of the bunker at Guidel-Plage ??
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=147103

Regards Jos

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 632 and 648

#58

Post by dirk Peeters » 12 Nov 2012, 17:26

Yes we have good dranwings of a few 648 (Guidel Brest aso)
Perhaps tomorrow ill post them
Yes i m convinced now they are different , but my first problem for solving this was to find good plans
With our measurements plans i was convinced they are different ... But with the german plans it was not possible for a good investigation

No time now for 648
(I m making drawnings)
Dirk

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Re: 632 and 648

#59

Post by wimve » 12 Nov 2012, 18:34

Guys,

The main difference is the width of both models.
In the drawing with the red and blue from Dirk so see 8,90 as width. With 2m thick walls you are left with 4,90 inside.

The drawing from Jos shows however 9,80 as with, there you can have a 5,90 (5,80 in fact) wide iside room. The one measured by Dirk.
Thanks,

Wim
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3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: 632 and 648

#60

Post by M19 MADMAL » 12 Nov 2012, 20:02

So we can see in the gasslock if it's a 632 or a 648
Of possible interest; This same niche can be found in the 4-S WaKoFest's in the C.I. as well as the 6-s WaKoFest's on Jersey. :milsmile:

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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