AT obstacles

sebas379 · Post by **sebas379** » 24 Jun 2013 23:03

I think you sparked my interest in these things, Sturm

How about a look across the Channel
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/cari ... obstacles/

Ondrej Filip · Post by **Ondrej Filip** » 24 Jun 2013 23:06

sebas379 wrote:Is it the, what looks to be metal plate in the centre of the hedgehog, where the beams are connected? I'm not that well informed of the construction of these things, and I wonder about the local differences.

How to identify the original Hedgehog ....

sebas379 · Post by **sebas379** » 24 Jun 2013 23:11

Ondrej Filip wrote:
sebas379 wrote:Is it the, what looks to be metal plate in the centre of the hedgehog, where the beams are connected? I'm not that well informed of the construction of these things, and I wonder about the local differences.
How to identify the original Hedgehog ....

Ah, thank you. Learn something new every day

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 25 Jun 2013 05:44

The name seems to just denote a generic 6 pointed iron AT "caltrop" in WWII now. However, early iron ones predate "tanks", as part of anti-infantry wire obstacles.

The original " Czech Hedgehog" , I venture to guess, was made out of wood, and possibly even iron, by the Romans.

. A short "abattis" is all they really are.

Ondrej Filip · Post by **Ondrej Filip** » 25 Jun 2013 07:46

ChristopherPerrien wrote:The name seems to just denote a generic 6 pointed iron AT "caltrop" in WWII now. However, early iron ones predate "tanks", as part of anti-infantry wire obstacles.

The original " Czech Hedgehog" , I venture to guess, was made out of wood, and possibly even iron, by the Romans. . A short "abattis" is all they really are.

I think they have used different constructions in the old times, called "Cheval de frise" or "Spanish rider". Hedgehod shape is not good for an anti-infantry obstacle

AvB · Post by **AvB** » 25 Jun 2013 09:39

I have a photo with hedgehogs in the Grenzstellung. Must be around Gehsen West or todays Jeże Wschód.

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 25 Jun 2013 10:02

Ondrej Filip wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:The name seems to just denote a generic 6 pointed iron AT "caltrop" in WWII now. However, early iron ones predate "tanks", as part of anti-infantry wire obstacles.

The original " Czech Hedgehog" , I venture to guess, was made out of wood, and possibly even iron, by the Romans. . A short "abattis" is all they really are.
I think they have used different constructions in the old times, called "Cheval de frise" or "Spanish rider". Hedgehod shape is not good for an anti-infantry obstacle

please refer to the forefront obstacle of early WWI , and tell me the "Czech Hedgehog" is somehow different. I already noted how the "hedge-hog" was related to an "abattis" / "Cheval de frise"

Should I go go back to earlier examples in the American Civil War, or all the way back to Ancient Rome to find the same. Name me a person of the Czechoslovackian ethnic who patented such a design. The Czech Hedgehog is as old as organized War is , maybe older.

AvB · Post by **AvB** » 25 Jun 2013 10:26

Christopher, the, what the Germans called 'Tschechenigel' (Czech hedgehog) is probably the cumulation of hundreds of years of hedgehogs, and it's the steel construction we see passing by in this topic. So in that aspect, that one is really Czechoslovakian.

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 25 Jun 2013 10:36

The end result with a Czech hedge-hog, is it presents as much of an obstacle at its top , as it does its base. In this way it is superior to a pyramidal design, which has a big base but a only a pointy top.

A cube blocks more than a pyramid, and also lends more square area to string up more barbed wire. Both shapes, no matter how they are tossed about still land upright. But a 6 sided obstacle(cube) is still superior to a 4 sided obstacle(pyramid) opposing infantry, but not tanks.

Hence the advantage to what we call a Czech Hedgehog as compared to a good ol' fashion Caltrop. Names not withstanding.

To be Honest , as a tanker having dealt with myriad obstacles, I would worry more about the wire attached to a Czech Hedgehog more than such obstacles by themselves.

AvB · Post by **AvB** » 25 Jun 2013 10:41

I think the Czechs also made the big concrete anti-tank version of the caltrop

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 25 Jun 2013 10:49

Yep,

, I think we had it better as tankers appeoaching such caltrops, than say horse cavalry or Chariot calvalry did approaching the old smaller caltrops of ancient history.

I could run such concrete caltrops over in my M1 tank, given there weren't too many rows of them. Which might explain why you always see them or Czech Hedge-hogs in rows of 4-5 deep.

Caltrops and hedgehogs in enough numbers can eventual "bottom-out" a tank no matter the skill of the driver in avoiding track /running gear damage. Trees, and the tree trunks and tree stumps as you run them over, present the same problem.

I surely have some bias, as I operated a 63 ton tank with 1500-1800 HP

, so "maybe" I had a little advantage as compared to a WWII tank approaching such an obstacle. But no matter the era, it really becomes a matter if such an obstacle is supported by defensive fire. An unsupported obstacle has no chance in the long run.

Sturm78 · Post by **Sturm78** » 27 Jun 2013 09:04

Hi all,

Another wartime image from EBay. I think original Czech hedgehogs, according to Ondrej Filip`s description

Sturm78

Stan P · Post by **Stan P** » 27 Jun 2013 20:32

Hi

Polish engineer wooden obstacles.

Polish pre-war anti-tank obstacles was simple but clever design. They were used in September 1939 for the construction of anti-tank barrier and roadblocks. Single obstacle was built with wooden boards and trunk of tree. Base of obstacle were built mostly with 16 dense boards with nails and joined together by 4 large screws. The military manuals doesn't clearly defined the dimensions but the weight of the single obstacle could reach up to 300 - 400 kg. (depending on the tree species used in the construction). The wood came from mostly deciduous hardwood. The trunks were from trees such as linden, beech, hornbeam or oak. The obstacles have been used in different ways but mostly to build roadblocks and anti-tank barrier. The base of obstacle could be full buried, partially buried in the ground or not buried. The obstacles could be used as adjustable or unadjustable. Polish used also tracks of the train as anti-tank barriers.

Some photos of Polish obstacles:

1. Polish exercise in 1930's in overcoming anti-tank wooden obstacles
2. Polish exercise in 1930's in overcoming anti-tank trasks of train's obstacles
3. Polish wooden obstacles, Poland, September 1939

Stan P · Post by **Stan P** » 27 Jun 2013 20:34

Three more...

1. Polish wooden obstacle, track of train and antitank ditch as anti-tank barrier near Mlawa, Poland, September 1939
2 and 3. Polish wooden obstacles as anti-tank barrier, broken by the Germans, September 1939

Stan P · Post by **Stan P** » 27 Jun 2013 20:35

..yet again....

1. Polish wooden obstacles as roadblock near Czestochowa, Poland, September 1939
2 & 3. Colour plates of Polish engineer wooden obstacles.

Regards, Stan

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