Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

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herring
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Location: Poland

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#31

Post by herring » 17 Jul 2013, 01:12

Hello,

I'm tracing this thread with a great interest. I'm very glad, that also in your country there are made some efforts towards preservation of german fortifications. I live in Poland, and here we have quite a number of projectss related to very different fortifications, and I'd like to share some risks, that I have observed during last years, and also answer to you doubts and questions:
1. knowledge about Kramatorsk fortifications - actually probably you are a biggest experts in this subject (I'm not joking). Field fortifications developed in East sometimes were quite different that these built in West, yours resembles a bit a VF3 structure ( http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 9c7570d3cc ), but it's still different. I wouldn't relay so much on BAMA, it may turn out that it will comsume a lot of time and money with small effect. Maybe some fortification friends in Russia could help?
2. formula of taking care - often people are enthusiastic in the beginning, the clean the bunker and reconstruct the trenches, but after 2, 5 or 10 years some are growing up, some are getting old, and bunker is getting forgotten once again.
3. formula of conservation - I think the minimum is "at first not to damage" - not to distort the real object by adding new attractive elements, fantasy camouflages, fixing battle damages etc.
4. documentation - it's very important to make drawings and measurements of the object before it's changed - so that other people could compare it to plans and other objects and drive their conclusions.
5. political environment - local politicians will always be looking for projects improving their PR; for example it could be e.g. "making a monument of victory over the facist enemy", with big attention to ideology and small attention to history, what may spoil a general picture; sometimes it's difficult to find a compromise.

Allover, keep up with a good job, I'm very curious about the final effect.

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AvB
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#32

Post by AvB » 17 Jul 2013, 10:18

Very good points! There are some NARA rolls about fortifications in the east in 1944. I'll have a look.


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kstdk
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#33

Post by kstdk » 17 Jul 2013, 10:29

Hi Constantin

When looking at your excavations, you have a very Deep hole inside the bunker, right.

Take care that the walls can hold the roof structure, and that the walls dont collapse inwarts.

Just a danger that i can imagine could happen.

Otherwise you all are doing a great job.

I am aggreeing with Herring in these points, you schould get hold of some files from the Eastern front (maybe NARA) and i also do not think that BAMA has them.

Regards
Kurt
kstdk

DaSk
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Posts: 142
Joined: 29 Apr 2010, 18:27

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#34

Post by DaSk » 17 Jul 2013, 16:34

Hi Constantin

here You are link to NARA vendors. I think it is easiest way to check what information about Kramatorsk fortifications are in NARA. If You need other information me know at PM.
Also check this web-page
http://www.fortification.ru/

Regards

Andrzej

http://www.archives.gov/research/order/ ... ps-dc.html

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#35

Post by Konstantin » 22 Jul 2013, 19:25

herring wrote:Hello,

I'm tracing this thread with a great interest. I'm very glad, that also in your country there are made some efforts towards preservation of german fortifications. I live in Poland, and here we have quite a number of projectss related to very different fortifications, and I'd like to share some risks, that I have observed during last years, and also answer to you doubts and questions:
1. knowledge about Kramatorsk fortifications - actually probably you are a biggest experts in this subject (I'm not joking). Field fortifications developed in East sometimes were quite different that these built in West, yours resembles a bit a VF3 structure ( http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 9c7570d3cc ), but it's still different. I wouldn't relay so much on BAMA, it may turn out that it will comsume a lot of time and money with small effect. Maybe some fortification friends in Russia could help?
2. formula of taking care - often people are enthusiastic in the beginning, the clean the bunker and reconstruct the trenches, but after 2, 5 or 10 years some are growing up, some are getting old, and bunker is getting forgotten once again.
3. formula of conservation - I think the minimum is "at first not to damage" - not to distort the real object by adding new attractive elements, fantasy camouflages, fixing battle damages etc.
4. documentation - it's very important to make drawings and measurements of the object before it's changed - so that other people could compare it to plans and other objects and drive their conclusions.
5. political environment - local politicians will always be looking for projects improving their PR; for example it could be e.g. "making a monument of victory over the facist enemy", with big attention to ideology and small attention to history, what may spoil a general picture; sometimes it's difficult to find a compromise.

Allover, keep up with a good job, I'm very curious about the final effect.
Hi!
Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. And I apologize for not having answered immediately. There were so many problems associated with the work. Unfortunately, I've never been to Poland and hardly ever will visit ... From the Polish fortifications and the work of Polish colleagues, I only know through the forum http://www.fortyfikacje.net. I was lucky enough to see some Polish emplacements in Belarus, near Baranovichi River Shchara (defensive line "Darewo"). That was in 2009. I wanted to organize a Polish-Ukrainian expedition to that region to study these structures. It would be fun and it could be used to ...
You are a very important and interesting questions raised ... Let me answer in order:

1. At the expense of specialists - You're exaggerating ... We know almost nothing of what constitutes a line of fortifications in Kramatorskaya ... I lay still hope that the information we can gather from the German military documents of that time. Tell me please, why are you so skeptical about BAMA? Is this file on funds so poor that we should not put much hope?
2. I understand what you are saying. The plan is - after renovation, this building transfer the balance to the municipality and to achieve assigned the status of "Historic Monument." It is possible, there is a preliminary agreement. This will somehow ensure its preservation for the future.
3. We plan to achieve maximum authenticity. By this, I ask colleagues to this distinguished forum to give advice - how could it be equipped facility, was closed entrance (door or grille?), And more.
4. Personally, I do all the diagrams and sketches, put on their size. And constantly taking pictures all elements and stages of recovery. I agree with you, it is very important.
5. This is a complex issue, it is a problem. But I think so - the desire of politicians and bureaucrats make a PR, that is exactly what is needed most of ... Given that the personal financial resources are very scarce. In our case, promising to help in the construction and repair work, the officials do not specify the format. The only thing they care about - to avoid any confrontation of different political forces in the press. That worries me. I offered to write a brief memorial tablet and neutrally - "Monument to the fortification of the Second World War"

Best regards.
Konstantyn Abramenko

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#36

Post by Konstantin » 22 Jul 2013, 19:30

AvB wrote:Very good points! There are some NARA rolls about fortifications in the east in 1944. I'll have a look.
Hi!
Thank you very much. I will be very hope and wait. Only this event in 1943, the Eastern Front. 1 tank army. Kramatorskaja.

Best regards.
Konstantyn Abramenko

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#37

Post by Konstantin » 22 Jul 2013, 20:34

kstdk wrote:Hi Constantin

When looking at your excavations, you have a very Deep hole inside the bunker, right.

Take care that the walls can hold the roof structure, and that the walls dont collapse inwarts.

Just a danger that i can imagine could happen.

Otherwise you all are doing a great job.

I am aggreeing with Herring in these points, you schould get hold of some files from the Eastern front (maybe NARA) and i also do not think that BAMA has them.

Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Hi!
Thank you for your trouble. We, too, was the fear that a reinforced concrete cap may start moving. But we are told that in 1971 he tried to disrupt the crawler tractor and failed. I must tell you that this cap is not just lying on a brick base, and is connected by rail fittings. We would very much needed help, I've never worked with NARA. And I do not know where to start ...

Best regards.
Konstantyn

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#38

Post by Konstantin » 22 Jul 2013, 20:40

DaSk wrote:Hi Constantin

here You are link to NARA vendors. I think it is easiest way to check what information about Kramatorsk fortifications are in NARA. If You need other information me know at PM.
Also check this web-page
http://www.fortification.ru/

Regards

Andrzej

http://www.archives.gov/research/order/ ... ps-dc.html
Hi, Andrzej!
Thank you very much for your help. I'm not quite figured out how to check if the information in NARA. But I'd rather write you a PM so as not to overload the respected forum such items.

Best regards.
Konstantyn

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#39

Post by Konstantin » 22 Jul 2013, 23:53

July 22 we were working on the site again, part-time team. This is bad and good - we now know to whom you can rely and not illusions. We continue to work on this project - I do not see any obstacles that we can not overcome. I keep hoping for financial assistance ... But we have no right to rely on it - we are taking other steps ... My teammates say I'm a dreamer and a visionary - you can only hope for the forces. Perhaps they are right.

We decided it would be wrong if we do not show people all the loopholes of this fortification. Even though it requires extra effort and additional coordination with the traffic service. And such permission is obtained, while the oral, but still ... need to install a stationary guards and other protective measures.

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I am afraid to give a strong stress on the spine. By this, I wear the earth in buckets, small portions

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My brother Andrew is engaged in the excavations of the southern loopholes

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Sergei Kukochka continues clearing the entrance

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Michael Naydenko dug up the regular concrete floor gallery entrance. Gallery entrance height was 1.90 meters. This is more than a building Vf 3

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This wall is almost ready for service. A little more can be cleaned and the hole to lay bricks

To be continued ...

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#40

Post by Konstantin » 23 Jul 2013, 17:01

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Unfortunately, clearing the south side of buildings, fallen earth. We have to perform extra work - re-dig input

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We patiently work - this is not the most annoying ...

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Andrew continues to bite into the slag layer. Today, he and Michael are working without a partner

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We are very favorable weather - not too hot, occasionally rain. Rain does not stop us. The only thing we regret - that did not start work before, for example, in May ...

To be continued ...

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#41

Post by Konstantin » 24 Jul 2013, 16:01

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To be continued ...

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#42

Post by Konstantin » 24 Jul 2013, 16:54

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To be continued ...

Konstantin
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Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#43

Post by Konstantin » 24 Jul 2013, 17:31

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My wife Irina is trying to learn to work the metal detector

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She was active in helping fox terrier Bassey

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Beginner's luck - they found casings from "Mauser"

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Children of the locals are very interested in what we're doing here

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We tell the children about the Second World War, we tell about the events of 70 years ago. We talk about the fact that there will be ... We have no doubt.

To be continued ...

Konstantin
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#44

Post by Konstantin » 25 Jul 2013, 20:42

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In the middle of the day came to a specialist and director of the construction company. We asked him to at least roughly calculate the cost of repair of the roof of the building.

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In addition, we are interested to hear his views on the organization of drainage of rain water. He gave us some good advice.

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Personally, I was beginning to irritate the uncertainty of the plan further activities ... We are caught in hopes of charity. I can not create a budget, since it is not clear how much money we can spend. Unfortunately, it turns out that our team of enthusiasts do not have people with higher incomes, there is no business ... This is natural, because in our country, people with higher income are not interested in such "nonsense" as the restoration of fortifications.

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Today we are constantly distracts someone from work ... Children, guests, someone else - it's unnerving. But if you look at it from the other side - for them, for the kids, it's all done. Do not delude ourselves - generation of my age in captivity stereotypes, well-established Soviet-era notions of historical processes. It is hoped the younger generation, our children - they have every chance to grow up without a twisted mind, without the pressure of Soviet propaganda. I hope that we, in some way, try this ...

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This is the main part of our team of enthusiasts. "Behind the scenes" were only Irina, Bessie ... Someone afraid of difficulties, someone scares the scope of work, some people just thought it would be a lot of fun ... But that's okay - there were the very people on whom we can hope ... That "stretched" the project - I do not doubt it.

Best regards.
Konstantyn Abramenko

Р.S. We are grateful for the financial support we are grateful for every Еuro. And for every Euro will report back. Financial resources in the first place, will be spent on:

1. Search and acquisition of archival documents.
2. Acquisition of working model of a machine gun MG-34 for use in fortifications.
3. Work on the installation of doors (grids) at the entrance to the construction and protection of the embrasures.
4. Other construction and repair work.
5. Production of information stands.

Below are the details of the bank account to help:

Beneficiary: acc. 038-26255111765
NAME ABRAMENKO KONSTIANTYN IGOROVICH, INN 2533114239
ADRESS KRAMATORSK b-r MASHINOSTROITELEY 2-16
Bank of Beneficiary : Raiffeisen Bank AVAL
Donetsk, UKRAINE
SWIFT: AVAL UA UK DON
Correspondent bank : acc 9470329 10
SWIFT DEUTDEFF

CORRESPONDENT BANKS OF AVAL BANK OUTSIDE THE C.I.S.
(NOSTRO ACCOUNTS)
Bank Name and Citi: Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.
Account Number: 9470329 10
Currency: EUR
S.W.I.F.T. BIC: DEUTDEFF

Bank Name and Citi: Raiffeisen Zentralbank Oesterreich, Vienna, Avstria
Account Number: 55022305
Currency: EUR
S.W.I.F.T. BIC: RZBAATWW

ATTENTION!
Please, be advised that according to the current legislative acts of Ukraine, we cannot accept payment in favour of the beneficiary if this payment originates from entrepreneurial activity of any kind. So, please, refrain from usinh such definitions as «contract», «bill », «invoice» etc. In details of payment (field #70 or # 72).

Raiffeisen Bank AVAL
OFFICE: 46V, F. ZAITZEVA STR., 83086, DONETSK, UKRAINE
TEL: (062) 337-19-13, (062) 337-25-47 TELEX: 631032 AVAL UX
S.W.I.F.T.: AVAL UA UK DON

Konstantin
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: 06 May 2009, 11:14
Location: Poltava, Ukraine

Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

#45

Post by Konstantin » 28 Jul 2013, 18:28

Hi!

Many thanks to all colleagues and caring people for the fact that you are reading my reports. This is evident by the number of views of the topic. So it's no wonder, then it is interesting not only for us but also in other countries. I am grateful to all of you for the moral support and encouragement of our initiatives. When you realize that it is of interest not only to a narrow circle of enthusiasts, it motivates to further action. I ask everyone to be included in the debate, it does not look monologue. Please make suggestions, maybe we're doing something wrong, maybe something can be done better and more interesting. Ask to speak.
As long as we pause in work. Sergei and Michael went on vacation with their families went to the Crimea, to rest on the sea. Andrew and I are planning to go on vacation next week - I'll go with his wife to the Holy Mountain on the River Donets improve my health, treat the spine, Andrew plans to go fishing on the river Donets. In fact, a pause in the work with the uncertainty caused by the repair and construction works. The money that we have collected on their own, clearly not enough to finance these activities. City officials promised to help, but as soon as it is - is unknown. Generally, Aug. difficult month - all on vacation.
The excavations bunker found 11 shell casings and bullets. I offer you a small study, authored by team member Michael Naydenko. He's a specialist in weapons.

Sleeve number 1

Image

Liner 7.92 x57 from a German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser. The cartridge used for firing a rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Material - Brass. It was released in 1943 in Germany. Manufacturer - Factory Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke AG, Ruhr city (lot number 2).
Cartridge ammunition bunker was in September 1943, but the fighting did not participate and only later it was broken out of a bullet, and the sleeve is thrown into the fire.

Sleeve number 2

Image

Sleeve from the German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser 7.92 x57, which was used to fire the rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
This sleeve is made in June 1938 in Czechoslovakia. Producer - factory Zbrojovka Brno (AS), was Považska Bystrica.
Shooting case has not, bullet broken out.

Sleeve number 3

Image

Liner 7.92 x57 from a German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser. The cartridge used for firing a rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Material - Brass. It was released in 1936 in Germany. Manufacturer - Factory D.W.M. AG, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Berlin (lot number 22).
According to the cartridge was fired from the German MG-42 machine gun.

Sleeve number 4

Image

Sleeve from the German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser 7.92 x57, which was used to fire the rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
This sleeve is made in September 1938 in Czechoslovakia (factory Sellier and Bellot, Prague).
Shooting case has not, with a bullet thrown into the fire, and then, as a result of the detonation, the upper part of the sleeve was torn off.

] Sleeve number 5

Image

Liner 7.92 x57 from a German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser. The cartridge used for firing a rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Material - steel, brass plated. Sleeve released in 1940 in Germany. Manufacturer - Factory Westfälische Metallindustrie AG, was Liebstadt (batch number 2). Supplier of metal blank factory August-Thyssen-Hütte AG, Duisburg. Electroplating is done at the factory Eduard Hueck Metallwarenfabrik, Lüdenscheid city. Steel composition: C: 0,15 - 0,22%, Mn: 0,4%, Si: 0,12%, P: 0,03%, S: 0,03%.

Cartridge number 6

German rifle and machine-gun unitary cartridge Mauser 7.92 x57.
Is designed to be fired from rifles Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Liner made in December 1935 in Czechoslovakia (factory Sellier and Bellot, Prague). The cartridge is deactivated.


Cartridge number 7

German rifle and machine-gun unitary cartridge Mauser 7.92 x57.
Is designed to be fired from rifles Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Liner made in August 1938 in Czechoslovakia. Producer - factory Zbrojovka Brno (AS), was Považska Bystrica. The cartridge is deactivated.

Cartridge number 8

Image

German rifle and machine-gun unitary cartridge Mauser 7.92 x57.
Is designed to be fired from rifles Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Liner made in May 1938 in Czechoslovakia. Producer - factory Zbrojovka Brno (AS),
g Považska Bystrica. The cartridge is deactivated.

Sleeve number 9

Sleeve from the German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser 7.92 x57, which was used to fire the rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
This sleeve is made in August 1939 in Czechoslovakia. Producer - factory Zbrojovka Brno (AS), was Považska Bystrica.
Cartridge ammunition bunker was in September 1943, but the fighting did not participate and only later it was broken out of a bullet, and the sleeve is thrown into the fire.


Sleeve number 10

Liner 7.92 x57 from a German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser. The cartridge used for firing a rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
This sleeve is made in September 1938 in Czechoslovakia (factory Sellier and Bellot, Prague).
From this bullet cartridge was broken out, and the sleeve is thrown into the fire.


Sleeve number 11

Sleeve from the German rifle and machine-gun cartridges unitary Mauser 7.92 x57, which was used to fire the rifle Mauser, Gewehr and machine guns MG (including MG-34/42).
Produced in May 1938 in Czechoslovakia. Producer - factory Zbrojovka Brno (AS),
Považska Bystrica.
From this bullet cartridge was broken out, and the sleeve is thrown into the fire.


Best regards.
Konstantyn Abramenko

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