Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

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Ondrej Filip
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#31

Post by Ondrej Filip » 25 Apr 2014, 17:23

Hi Tom, it is a very interesting topic. Did you found any bunkers with belgian armoured shields for 75 mm guns? Do you know how many of those bunkers had been built?

For information - my map of Fortress Antwerp. The German lines of "Hollandstellung" are marked with the orange dots.
Attachments
mapa_antverpy.gif
Fortress Antwerp, by O. Filip

svdb10
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#32

Post by svdb10 » 25 Apr 2014, 18:50

DaSk wrote:Exactly. You are right. svdb 10 are You from Metz?
Nope. Just an(other) Dutch guy. But I have visited a lot of fortresses around Europe, including some former German forts around Metz, Thionville and Strasbourg.


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Bunkerfreak
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#33

Post by Bunkerfreak » 26 Apr 2014, 16:27

Hello Filip,

yess i know some of the bunkers with the armored shields and i know also some Belgian fortresses where the 75mm canons are still inside, underneath some concrete, so someday it is maybe possible (i hope) te re-combine one of those shields with a canon.

I read in a book there are only 8x of this gunbunkers constructed, but i'm aware of nine of them allready, so possible there are some more.

The bunkers are from the type "ZWSTR" which stands for "Zwischenraumstreiche".
Here some pics of one of the beautifull conserved which shall been opened for public in october 2014. This is "ZWSTR 1" from the 3th regiment/ I. Batallion/ I. Zug.
001.JPG
Cleaned up trench by myself and some other co-workers from my work.
002.JPG
A view on this beauty, Early in the morning...
003.JPG
Inside the scharte, with the original bunkercolor still visible.
004.JPG
The Belgian plate for the 75mm gun, recovered from Fort Ertbrand.
Regards
Tom

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Bunkerfreak
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#34

Post by Bunkerfreak » 26 Apr 2014, 16:36

In the small redoute (don't know the english word for this, its called "Schans" in dutch, you can compare it with a small fortress) of Schilde there are two belgian pieces left, the fortress was blown up by retreating Belgian forces in 1914 after the Germans managed to get control of the Fortress Antwerp. The two pieces where covered in their original possition. One piece is an 75mm gun, the sames as re-used in the bunkers of the Nordabschnitt. The other one is a 120mm houwitzer.
001.JPG
View on both pieces
002.JPG
75mm
003.JPG
75mm
004.JPG
75mm
005.JPG
120mm
I'm aware of another "schans" in the fortress of Antwerp, called "smoutakker", there must be also some remaining guns inside which also are covered under the blown up structure. Unfortunatly i don't have pictures of those because this is one of the few places in Antwerp where i'm not been yet.

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Bunkerfreak
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#35

Post by Bunkerfreak » 26 Apr 2014, 16:44

In Fort 3 (Borsbeek) near the airfield of Antwerp, there is a modification from 1912 where a part of the old casemates is modified with 2x 75mm canons. Inside you will find one remaining "window carriage" for a 75mm gun.

Here you can see the other side which is in the concrete in the other bunkers:
001.JPG
the modification of the old fortress.
002.JPG
the window where the 75mm was placed.
003.JPG
the armoured plate for the 75mm.
004.JPG
Beside the armoured plate, this fortress is a beauty to visit! (not possible freely).
Regards
Tom "Bunkerfreak" Oliviers :milsmile:

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Bunkerfreak
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#36

Post by Bunkerfreak » 26 Apr 2014, 16:51

About the Holland Stellung, this name ends on the westbank of Antwerp, because the German bunkers around Antwerp belonged to the "Festung Antwerpen". Its devided in four large area's, Nordabschnitt, Westabschnitt, Sudabschnitt and Scheldeabschnitt. On the Eastern border of the Festung Antwerpen, another German defenceline continued, this was the Turnhout Kanal Stellung. (in other books also referred as Antwerpen - Turnhout Stellung).

So Antwerp is no part of the Holland Stellung, its just connected to it. (Lucky, so we proud Antwerp people don't have to bear a name with "Holland" in it :P :P :P (Just joking).

The bunkers in Antwerp where constructed by the "Kaiserliche Fortifikation Antwerpen", but i'm not 100% shure what this was. Is this the building company of the German Heer which was responsible for the construction of the bunkers? something like the Organisation Todt during the second world war?

Anyone?

Tom

DaSk
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#37

Post by DaSk » 27 Apr 2014, 18:03

As I am not wrong Fortification Antwerpen was not a building company of prussian army. I my opinion it was some kind of staff/headquarters which was responsible for recognition of some area where should be bunkers built. Fortification was preparing plans how many bunkers should be built on particular area, what kind of bunkers (MG, observation or shelters for infantry etc.), how should run Main Defence Line, which bridges should be blown up, what kind of obstacles should be built, where should be built artillery positions an so on. If I am not wrong when Fortification preprepared such plans it could be realized by Army (infantry or engineers units) or civilians firms/companies. Such Fortifications were present in many (if not all) prussian fortresses.
One more question. If "Zwischenraumstreiche" are belgian or prussian origin?

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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#38

Post by 20P7 » 27 Apr 2014, 21:20

Good evening gentlemen,

first of all I would like to thank Tom for sharing his knowledge about the german bunker defence line north of Antwerpen. As he mentioned the standard bunker design of the german armed forces in WW I can be seen as the forefathers of the Regelbauten from the 1935ies up to 1944. The main difference between the way of bunkerdesigning in WW I and WW II in the german forces was

a) that there was in WW I not just one R 1xx or 6xx for one purpose that had to be used all along the fortifeid fronts. Instead of that there existed technical egulations how a shelter for a special purpose had to be designed like thickness of roof and walls, space for personnel etc..... Each Kaiserliche Fortifikation was independent and able to design its own bunkertypes. The Kaiserliche Fortifikation was a local staff of fortress engineers that can be a little bit compared to the Festungspionierstäbe later on, but with much more freedom in questions of the design of a bunker. Until 1914 the smallest bunkertypes were the I-, A- and M-Räume. Building of smaller bunkertypes started with the so called Armierungsstellungen“ of the war. Now small shelters for personell, observation, machine guns etc. were build.

The experiences with all those Armierungsstellungen were brought together in the so called „Stellungsbauvorschrift“. Here you find all neccessary informations for the bunker design. The first Stellungsbauvorschrift that I know is dated 20.06.1916. It was updated 15.12.1916, a booklet called „Betonbauten“ was added 15.11.1917 and finally 26.08.1918 there was the last edition of this Stellungsbauvorschrift..

By the way, the drawings of the shelter that are printed in Christian Dropsies very nice book about the fortifications of Metz and Diedenhoven are taken from the Stellungsbauvorschrift.

Regards

Daniel
Attachments
Stellungsbau 15121916.jpg
Stellungsbau 20061916.jpg
Stellungsbau 20081918.jpg

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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#39

Post by 20P7 » 27 Apr 2014, 21:22

For comparison with the bunkers around Antwerpen I added drawings from the Stallungsbau manual and from some bunkers in the Armierungsstellungen south of Metz.

Regards

Daniel
Attachments
Stellungsbau Beobachter unter Panzerplatte.jpg
Stellungsbau Beobachter unter Panzerplatte so Metz.jpg
Betonbauten 15111917.jpg

20P7
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#40

Post by 20P7 » 27 Apr 2014, 21:25

Have a nice evening guys!

Daniel
Attachments
Stellungsbau MG unter Panzerplatte.jpg
Stellungsbau MG unter Panzerplatte so Metz.jpg
Stellungsbau Dreischartenturm.jpg
Stellungsbau Dreischartenturm sw Metz.jpg

DaSk
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#41

Post by DaSk » 27 Apr 2014, 21:28

20P7 those drawings are super! Thanks a lot!
A one question. Where was taken this picture of steel - concrete steel copula?

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Bunkerfreak
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#42

Post by Bunkerfreak » 27 Apr 2014, 23:32

Thank you both for the informations!

Is it possible to become a digital copy of each of the books somehow?
DaSK, the Zwischenraumstreiche was a german (or prussian?) bunker which used a belgian gun (a beutewaffe from that time).

I'm happy to see there is more information in the world then we first thought!
That picture of Metz, its the same coupola as we have in Antwerpen! Awesome!

:thumbsup:
Tom

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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#43

Post by 20P7 » 28 Apr 2014, 11:50

Hello Tom,

I don’t know if there are digital copies available of the later editions of the Stellungsbauvorschrift. The edition dated 20.06.1916 was placed online sometimes ago. There was a link in an elder thread on this forum, but I forgot in which one. Maybe someone else does?
The other editions I ordered via “Fernleihe” (remote lent) in a library for some days.

Hello Andrzej,

The steel cupola with the three holes was photographed in the woods west of Pagny sur Moselle.

Regards

Daniel

DaSk
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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#44

Post by DaSk » 28 Apr 2014, 12:26

Hello!

Thanks Daniel for answer. It is interesting, that such copulas were installed in Metz area. As a attachment You will find two pictures of such copula installed in one of Poznań forts (VIIIa). As I know Poznań copulas has got six holes.
Attachments
ag041_11.jpg
ag041_11.jpg (109.02 KiB) Viewed 549 times
ag109_12.jpg
ag109_12.jpg (144.22 KiB) Viewed 549 times

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Re: Nordabschnitt Antwerpen

#45

Post by 20P7 » 29 Apr 2014, 08:22

Hello Tom and Andrzej,

please find attached two more examples of concrete structures mentioned in the manual that were realized in Armierungsstellungen along the western frontline. One is a so-called Schneckenbeobachter, normally made of steel, now protected by concrete all around and on top and the other one is a observation post made of concrete with once a metal cover above the observation platform.

I have to check if the steelturret south of Metz also has got six holes like the ones that Andrzej posted.

Regards

Daniel
Attachments
Stellungsbau Schneckenbeobachterstand betoniert.jpg
Stellungsbau Schneckenbeobachterstand.jpg
Stellungsbau Deckenbeobachtungsstand vor Verdun.jpg
Stellungsbau Deckenbeobachterstand.jpg

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