6-Sch. optics questions

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M19 MADMAL
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6-Sch. optics questions

#1

Post by M19 MADMAL » 04 Oct 2014, 19:17

Hi all,

The 6 loopholed turret bunkers must have had the greatest concentration of operational optics found in any single bunker type, and if a percentage of them were lost it would greatly reduce the bunker's effectiveness, but are there any records of how many spare optics were stored in 6-Sch. bunkers to replace battle damaged ones???

I have seen records showing that the gun carriage mounted Pz.Z.F.1 aiming optics were each provided with a spare optic (so 4 were provided in total per 6-Sch.).

But what about the main Pz.Rbl.F. 5 periscope or the 3 x Pz.B.W.F 8 episcopes???
Am I correct in saying that both the periscope and the episcopes have the head unit attached to the scope's main body by breaking plates which allow the head to be 'expendable' if it took battle damage while (hopefully!) the scope's main body can then have a new head fitted to make it usable again.

If this is correct how were these extra heads stored and how many were provided? I have seen photos of a box for holding 3 x replacement heads for the Pz.Rbl.F.5, but for the Pz.B.W.F.8 episcopes???

Any help gratefully received!

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
Attachments
peri12-2.jpg
A Pz.B.W.F. episcope showing the 'I' shaped black breaking plates attaching the head unit to the main body of the optic. (Photo Bunkersite.com)
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peri-sechs3.jpg
The 6-Sch. central periscope (Pz.Rbl.F.5), the black painted head is designed to be expandable/replaceable. (Photo from Bunkersite,com)
peri-sechs3.jpg (60.96 KiB) Viewed 1606 times
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TH
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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#2

Post by TH » 04 Oct 2014, 21:21

Hi Malcolm,

I have data on the spare equipment for Pz.Rbl.F. 5, Pz.Z.F. 1 and the S.R. 4.
The files for the Pz.BW.F. 8 (ZN 5909) are not included in the document, but for three Pz.BW.F. 6 there were three spare periscopes, nine spare heads and a lot of smaller spare parts (bolts and metal rings etc.).
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grappener
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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#3

Post by grappener » 04 Oct 2014, 22:27

Nice Post Malc........and thanks for paraphrasing the "optical density law" I espoused at last years talk.....nice one!

So we knew there might be a "few" replacement heads....but wasn't prepared for quite so many! Many thanks TH for posting.

Again another aspect uncovered here was the use of the SR4 in 20P7 Cupolas.

Really nice to get some corroboration on these points, so far we have been going off of a few photo kindly provided by our friends in Holland of the "Ersatz Ausblickkopfe" case for 2 x Pz.Rbl.F.5 heads (Ausblickkopf).

Another aspect I have been looking into was how disciplined the use of dessicator cartridges (trockenpatrone) were. The inside lid of the Pz.Rbl.F.5. case goes into detail about the schedules for changing them over and drying them out on a heat source so that they change colour when saturated. When dry they were blue but turned red\white when laden with moisture.

Part of my talk last year questioned the seeming "impregnability" of the 6-Sch. yet to my mind......mother nature could happily defeat the position with a few droplets of water :-)

Maybe this is why 6 replacements for the Pz.Rbl.F.5. were on inventory.....and I can easily believe 9 for the Pz.B.W.F.8 based on this approach to scaling.

Thanks again TH a massive leap for us in our learning!

Thanks Malc for the initial post

Grappener

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#4

Post by M19 MADMAL » 04 Oct 2014, 22:40

WOW! Thanks TH :thumbsup: That's a lot of optical equipment 8O

So, a 6-Sch would be provided with:
Pz.Rbl.F.5 Periscope x 2 in their boxes (each of which contains the accessories and a spare head) plus 6 more spare heads (held in 2 boxes) [or 2 x periscopes + 8 replacement heads].

Pz.Z.F.1 Aiming optic x 6 (1 plus 2 spare for each gun carriage).

Pz.B.W.F.8 Episcope x 6 (2 boxes of 3) plus 9 replacement heads.

Has anybody ever seen a box/case for holding the Pz.B.W.F episcope's spare heads, or even better a photo of one?

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#5

Post by TH » 05 Oct 2014, 21:01

Yes, it's a lot of equipment. The document is from 1942, I wonder if the numbers were reduced in later years to avoid shortages.
grappener wrote:Another aspect I have been looking into was how disciplined the use of dessicator cartridges (trockenpatrone) were. The inside lid of the Pz.Rbl.F.5. case goes into detail about the schedules for changing them over and drying them out on a heat source so that they change colour when saturated. When dry they were blue but turned red\white when laden with moisture.
I've read a general description about that. In the same document it is mentioned that all optical equipment was to be dismounted in times when no combat was expected. Everything was to be stored readily available in the storage boxes at the bottom of the turret.

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#6

Post by M19 MADMAL » 05 Oct 2014, 22:38

TH wrote:. . . In the same document it is mentioned that all optical equipment was to be dismounted in times when no combat was expected. Everything was to be stored readily available in the storage boxes at the bottom of the turret.
Hi TH,

Interesting and very helpful, and obvious on a practical level, particularly regarding the heads of the episcopes (Pz.B.W.F's) which would have been constantly exposed to the elements. I was wondering if any records existed for what the optic quota was so the display panels in the Type 634 at Stp. Corbiere gave the correct amount of reserves held (I have had to make some amendments already :lol: ), but also to make the correct amount of replica optic cases for display at some point in the future 8-)

When the turret room was dug out in the Type 634 at Stp. Corbiere there were several unpainted areas/boxes on the walls (but obviously painted around!) just above the lower platform. Although there are no fixing holes, these unpainted areas suggest that they were the location of storage shelves for the various optic cases.

Below are some photos (by Steve Powell of Festung Guernsey) taken inside the 6-Sch. at Fort Doyle (Guernsey) when it was excavated in January this year, which I was lucky to help with. The bunker consisted of only the turret room and a small room behind it which contained the 'footprints' of irregularly spaced shelving which appears to have been for holding the optic cases rather than the Patronen Kasten Pz.34 ammo boxes.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
Attachments
IMG_1907.jpg
Footprint of a heavy duty shelf.
IMG_1864.jpg
Rubble pouring in through the entrance door. The turret room doorway is opposite this door.
IMG_1861.jpg
Footprint of the irregularly spaced shelving unit.
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#7

Post by jopaerya » 02 Nov 2014, 18:24

I found this , maybe it's of some help , Regards Jos
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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#8

Post by M19 MADMAL » 02 Jan 2016, 19:58

TH wrote:Hi Malcolm,

I have data on the spare equipment for Pz.Rbl.F. 5, Pz.Z.F. 1 and the S.R. 4.
The files for the Pz.BW.F. 8 (ZN 5909) are not included in the document, but for three Pz.BW.F. 6 there were three spare periscopes, nine spare heads and a lot of smaller spare parts (bolts and metal rings etc.).
With regards to TH's post regarding spare parts for the Pz.B.W.F.
Below are some photos of the box for holding the 'Ersatzteile' (spare parts) :thumbsup:

It is from the following Russian Forum:
https://forum-antikvariat.ru/index.php/ ... ckogo-zip/

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
Attachments
post-1724-0-59883000-1378710167.jpg
post-1724-0-74675700-1378710150.jpg
post-1724-0-55835300-1378710189.jpg
post-1724-0-41181700-1378710209.jpg
post-1724-0-45270200-1378710133.jpg
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#9

Post by jopaerya » 10 Apr 2016, 15:06


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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#10

Post by M19 MADMAL » 10 Apr 2016, 22:48

The 1st photos are taken by me with a Pz.Rbl.F.5 I acquired from the same ebay seller which was tried out in the 20P7 mounted in the 4-Sch.WaKoFest at Wn. La Mare Mill! I had no problems with him and he was very honest regarding the condition of the example I got from him which came complete with its case and a spare head plus some other accessories. The optics are mint as can be seen by the view of La Rocco Tower in St. Ouen's Bay 8-)

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#11

Post by AvB » 11 Apr 2016, 16:10

And he's got two of them??

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#12

Post by jopaerya » 11 Apr 2016, 17:02

Thanks Malcolm

I thought it was "your" 634 .

Regards Jos

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#13

Post by M19 MADMAL » 11 Apr 2016, 17:47

AvB wrote:And he's got two of them??
Hi Arthur,
The one now for sale is from a friend of the seller I got mine from. He was surprised to actually see a 2nd example and originally asked if I was interested! From the photos it looks like the breaker plates to connect the head to the optic are broken which is why the head is separate. I have also been offered another recently as well with its transport/storage case but without a spare head 8-)

Still looking for a Panzer Rundblick Ziel Fernrohr 3 (Pz.Rbl.Z.F.3) for the M19 though :idea: :wink:
jopaerya wrote:Thanks Malcolm

I thought it was "your" 634 .

Regards Jos
Hi Jos,
No it's shown in the '4-Sch. WaKoFest' at La Mare Mill (Val de la Mare) but is normally on display in the 634! :wink:

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#14

Post by Jens Andersen » 11 Apr 2016, 17:54

Still looking for a Panzer Rundblick Ziel Fernrohr 3 (Pz.Rbl.Z.F.3) for the M19 though :idea: :wink:
Who isn't?

:roll:
Jens

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Re: 6-Sch. optics questions

#15

Post by AvB » 12 Apr 2016, 12:19


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