Vf LAG

Discussions on the fortifications & artillery used by the Axis forces.
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myt1prod
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby myt1prod » 06 Jul 2016 10:23

When looking at the measurements on the different Vf LAG bunkers we have here, we notice a variety of Schartes; measuring from 2m broad up too 3,27m broad!!
The measurements for the Kampfraum at it's widest point are 4m up too 4,5m.
Also the depth of the Kampfraum seems to be different on several Vf LAG bunkers...
And for the niche-lovers; the niches to fixate the legs of the fieldgun rarely have the same distance to the sharte...

could we conclude then that a Vf LAG could give shelter to different kinds of canons (small and larger once... noticing the positioning of the niches)... could we also conclude perhaps that every Vf LAG was built to fit a specific kind of canon? That would explain the large variety of measurements on these bunkers...

dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 10:36

Nice thoughts Jean
could be logical
Also the length can varie
but we can t do like VF LAG model a serie 2 etc hahaha
now put them by model and afterwards we can see the differences
maybe the gun list of the StP can help us out
Dirk

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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 10:50

For sure
what we call model c on the german plan is written Schartenstand Pak 7,5 "Reichenau"
strange no ? not LAG but Pak
pak 7,5.jpg
pak 7,5 (1).jpg

Reichenau is i ll think a StP in the KVA A but i have no info of this
and just up till now no VF LAG has popped up there
Dirk
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dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 10:59

StP Reichenau is in KVA A3 in Koksijde (ST Idesbald)
pak 7,5 (2).jpg
pak 7,5 (3).jpg

maybe Pierrot or Jean knows more
Dirk
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dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 11:36

it looks like VF LAG is not a good name for some here
the model a has on his german plan dated 24 12 1942 the name Schartenstand fur 7,5 PaK (Ausfuhrung des kampfraumes nach Regelbau 626
I forgot that completely

dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 11:54

00.jpg
Schartenstand Pak 7,5 FA (2).jpg


the plan of this one
Schartenstand Pak 7,5 FA (1).jpg

and for the Tobruk ... we can t call it an offener beobachter or otherwise
written on that plan also
ausfuhrung des Ringstandes nach Regelbau 58c (see in red circle)

Schartenstand Pak 7,5 FA Regelbau 58c forum.jpg


but the most urgent question
is it an LAG or a Pak stand ?


The 60 cm version is Felsmassig , i ll think the brick version as well
and the one meter concrete is the VF (verstarkt felsmassig
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dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 12:06

Hello Alain
yesterday you said
VF LAG mit offener Beobachter : is better i think is the terme when a Tobruk is includ (no type) because 58c and VF8 are only alone or near
or if you want VF LAG mit Ringstand

i said i don t wanna make the war again but this is why i said it by looking on the german plans

model a , Pak or Lag with ringstand i ll think is aproriate for the two of us
What do you think for PAK or LAG ?
and what do others think here ?
it becomes confused i ll think
Dirk

AvB
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby AvB » 06 Jul 2016 14:00

It depends on the weapon in the bunker. If it was a Pak it's Pak casemate, LAG = LAG casemate. :)
And we can call it a Ringstand or Offener Beobachter because that's what it is too.

jopaerya
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby jopaerya » 06 Jul 2016 15:47

Here the document that fits by the two drawings Zehng.Fest.Pi.Kdr.XVIII 186 and 187
as you can read the 187 was designed for PaK but could be used for LAG also .

Regards Jos
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby jopaerya » 06 Jul 2016 15:54

Some observation from my side .

Model d has no gun room in the shape of a 626 or 611 .
Model a/187 has sometimes a raised floor in the gunroom .

Regards Jos

dirk Peeters
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 15:55

thanks Jos
nice dokument

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Re: Vf LAG

Postby dirk Peeters » 06 Jul 2016 15:58

Yes Jos
many are destroyed so it should be not easy to see these details like raised floor atc
Dirk

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Chazette
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby Chazette » 06 Jul 2016 17:37

Dirk yes I note, it is marked on the map
and this is a textbook case, as the Tobruk is integrated within the structure and form himself a 58c

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TH
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby TH » 06 Jul 2016 17:40

It is my understanding that LAG is more a role, than a gun class. A Pak could be used as LAG.
Somewhere I've got a document (that I cannot find now :() listing various guns employed as LAGs, including Paks, Flaks and field guns.

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myt1prod
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Re: Vf LAG

Postby myt1prod » 07 Jul 2016 00:37

Hi dirk,

I have no information on Reichenau, I didn't even know of it's existance
but as I recall well a friend of mine used to live there and he once told me many years ago there was some kind of bunker in his garden... I'll be checking into that in the days to come.

As TH, it is also my understanding that LAG indicates the function af a certain bunker (being 'LandesAbwehrGeschutz' / and thus securing the surrounding land/field) and this could be done by a variety of canons... sometimes PAK, sometimes a FlaKcanon or a fieldgun.

(just like many other St-bunkertypes... example; a R677 can be considered as a St-LAG-bunker as it function is to protect the surounding land but it was fitted 8,8cm PAK)


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