"Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

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nordfriese
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"Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by nordfriese » 10 Dec 2015 01:25

Hi!

When I searched this side http://www.stelling-amsterdam.nl/bunker ... chrichten/
I noticed the second picture of this strange "Draaitafel" (turntable) with "gradenverdeling"
(degree graduation) at Fort Pampus near Muiden (NL).

Because my dutch is not so good, I think their opinion is, that it belonged to s.th. about
german Luftnachrichten and was not dutch-made as the Fort itself. Unfortunately the
picture is very small and I havn't found a larger one on the net.

The reason I'm asking is, that here in the north of Germany, on the island of Sylt, there
is a also a kind of such a "turntable", which seems to have the same size and also a degree
graduation. Picture attached.

I thought, the Sylt-turntable could have been the base of a "Karussell"-Fernfunkfeuer (long
distance radio-beacon), but Mr. Trenkle wrote, that there was no "Karussell" in the Nether-
lands. So it seems, that my guess is wrong.

The position of the Sylt one is roughly between the airfield of Westerland and the sea-
plane station of Rantum.

Has anybody an idea for what this turntable was good for?
Does anybody have a larger picture of the Pampus-turntable?
Any other turntables anywhere?

Best wishes and thanks in advance
Rolf
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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 10 Dec 2015 09:42

Don't know what it is (some sort of look-out i guess) but it was already there from the beginning at Pampus.
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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 10 Dec 2015 09:46

The description on the website suggests otherwise. Strange.

Ondrej Filip
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by Ondrej Filip » 10 Dec 2015 11:52

I have found bigger photo. There was a main observation post of the fort at this place, acessible from inside. Probably it was an armoured construction. The turntable is different think.
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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 10 Dec 2015 12:05

I was there earlier this year. Apparently it didn't caught my attention since I have no photo's of that object. Maybe re-used and they poured the concrete over the existing observation tower.

nordfriese
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by nordfriese » 10 Dec 2015 14:40

Hi!

Thanks for your answers.

@Ondrej Filip
Thanks for the picture. :thumbsup: In some details the turntable looks a bit different, but in "style" it
looks to me quite similar.
ErwinZ wrote:Maybe re-used and they poured the concrete over the existing observation tower.
On your old plan, the "look-out" looks much higher, so I would agree your guess.

At the picture of Ondrej Filip there's a tube on top of the "metal middle thing" at Pampus. I think,
the Sylt-one had this as well. There was a rusty tube lying next to it, to which I haven't paid any
attention when I took the pictures. I think, it just rosted off.

Best wishes
Rolf
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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 10 Dec 2015 15:04

nordfriese wrote:
ErwinZ wrote:Maybe re-used and they poured the concrete over the existing observation tower.
On your old plan, the "look-out" looks much higher, so I would agree your guess.
No it's not. The area between the guns is filled up with a new roof. But that doesn't really matter for the re-use theory.

Any change there was M.Flak training on Sylt? The Dutch site mentioned Ubungsschiessen from the beach of Muiden. I know there was a training site near Hardewijk, never heard of one near Muiden though.

nordfriese
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by nordfriese » 11 Dec 2015 12:49

Hi Erwin!

There were several KM- and Luftwaffe-Flak-sites at Sylt, but there was no Flak-school.
I don't know, if they made some Flak-training on the island by their own...

Best wishes
Rolf

JKernwerk
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by JKernwerk » 12 Dec 2015 16:44

As far as i have seen resistancedocuments on radar they do not mention a "radar" on Ft. Pampus.
Maybe there were no civilians allowed on the fort.
JK

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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 15 Dec 2015 10:22

I almost let this one go. Until I got contacted via-via by a guide from fort Pampus. There are actually photo's of the object with some sort of lafette on wheels.

More here at bottom page: http://claesenpeter.nl/page-15.html
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kstdk
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by kstdk » 15 Dec 2015 12:48

Hello

But not anything about the use if "the thingy" ??

Regards
Kurt
kstdk

JKernwerk
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by JKernwerk » 15 Dec 2015 17:30

I do not know if Karusell was attached to one of the bigger Himmelbett-stations like Seeadler, if so it could be Seeadler which was located between Weesp and Muiden.
Or was it more a standalone radar.
JK

nordfriese
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by nordfriese » 18 Dec 2015 09:37

Hi!

"Karussell" was not a radar, but a guidance beam.

According to Hoffmann and Trenkle, Lt. Diehl made his first Ground Controlled
Intercepts from the island of Wangerooge in 1939. After his first successes by
ground-to-air radio guidance on shortwave, the RAF started to jam the voice
radio guidance.

Therefore Lt. Diehl had the idea to use a guidance beam instead of radio con-
trolled intercept by voice. He let install a guidance beam next to his Freya-
Radar, which pointed at the same direction as the Freya he used. The fighters
shall use this beam to fly to their targets. After Hoffmann, Lt. Diehl wrote at
March, 11th 1940 into his dairy: "Aufbau der Drehbake als Steuergerät für die
Jäger" (setting of the turnable beacon as guidance for the fighters).

This "simple" guidance beam should have been replaced by a "proper" one, the
"Karussell".

Trenkle wrote, that there were three "Musteranlagen" in St. Peter Ording and
on the islands of Sylt (village of List (?)) and Wangerooge.

Mr. Ulf Balke wrote an article for a magazine (Sorry, I don't have its name),
where he described the positions of the Karussell at St. Peter and on Sylt.
I think, he had better information.

The one on Sylt was described as "Building site south-east of Westerland",
which fits roughly to "my" position.

Mr. Balke didn't mention the one at Wangerooge. Trenkle wrote about Wange-
rooge, that the one wasn't tested anymore, because the unit of Lt. Diehl moved
to the Netherlands. Hoffmann wrote, that all equipment, which was used by the
unit of Lt. Diehl at Wangerooge (except Freya 1), were uninstalled at August, 1st
1940 and were moved to Holland.

Even the Karussell ???

All this happened in 1939/1940. I think "Seeadler" was build up later.

Attached a picture of Karussell from Trenkle "Die deutschen Funführungsverfahren"
and a drawing by Mr. Balke. Unfortuately you can't see the center concrete block
at the picture. I don't know, if Mr. Balke had a proper drawing of the antenna or
the concrete blocks for his drawing...

Best wishes
Rolf
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jopaerya
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by jopaerya » 18 Dec 2015 21:28

Interesting Rolf

But the R.A.F. would see this thing on Pampus , never found any Allied or German information on the Karussel in Holland .

Regards Jos

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ErwinZ
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Re: "Turntable" at Fort Pampus, Muiden (NL)

Post by ErwinZ » 21 Dec 2015 16:18

Thanks Rolf. But such a construction was way too large for Pampus imo.

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