Baupunkt 14 in Festung Hoek van Holland

[ErwinZ]

Thanks AvB for the tip! Years ago, I contacted the WASt, but could not get any information about my father. No records found. So unfortunately that aid is not available and thus doesn't help to resolve the issue.

The WASt is not much of a help in this case since he survived the war. You can however try to contact the Red Cross, not only do they have information on POW's but also about migration. In this case a returning soldier from captivity is also a form of migration.

Try the German Red Cross: soldiers origin.
https://www.drk-suchdienst.de/en/initia ... g-requests

Dutch Red Cross: country of captivity?
http://www.gahetna.nl/vraagbaak/onderzo ... rode-kruis (The archive is recently moved to the National Archives)

You can also try the Red Cross of the country where he ended up after the war.

[hannibal2]

Peter: I lived though the war from the ages of 5 to 11. During that entire period I saw my father only about 6 or 7 times, that is, while he was home on furlough from the Wehrmacht, last time in July 1944 from Holland..
Gert

[Peter de Krom]

Hi Gert,

Sorry for my late reply, but I have also send you a private message. I hope this will receive you well.

All the best,

Peter

[hannibal2]

Hello friends!

To all who have been following this thread, I want to announce that my search for the exact location of my father's Pak40 in Festung Hoek van Holland has finally come to an end. It all comes down to this: According to the research done by the chief administrator of the Atlantikwall-Museum at Hoek van Holland whom I've lately been in contact with and who is familiar with the facts, the gun actually was sited in the very bunker that today houses the Museum itself, that is, until the time toward the end of the war when it was replaced by a Russian Beutewaffe gun, presumably a 7,62 cm AT gun. What an amazing surprise! This bunker, a Type 625b, was part of what was called Widerstandsnest 17 by the Germans. The particular siting of the Pak40 in the bunker tells something about the specific mission of the gun which was to prevent any landings by enemy tanks or troops along the line of the beach directly to the North of it. The Pak40 that is currently housed in the Museum is not the original one but a replacement that was brought in from another location.

I wish to thank all who contributed to this thread with their valuable advice and suggestions. It's been a very interesting and lively discussion.

Cheers and good luck,
Gert

[Peter de Krom]

Hi Gert,

Good to hear you've made contact with the Atlantikwall Museum. The discussion about Pak 40's was always a vivid subject among the volunteers of this museum (including myself for 16 years). I'm afraid though that the facts as stated below can't be right.

In Wn. 17 there is no 625, only the 611, which is the current main location of the museum that houses the Pak40 (from a other location) you mentioned. I think they must have meant the 625b of Stp. IV (Baupunkt 14c) which is the original Atlantikwall Museum bunker (that now houses a 5cm KwK). We had this discussion before and I hope i'm not troubling you to much with bringing it up again. But to really have some facts:

Stp. IV had two 625b's both equipes with a Pak 40 up until march '44. After that it was equipped with 7,62 russian Field guns (used as Anti Tank), then after that 10 cm Fieldguns. Like mentioned before, you're father could have worked in both 625b's of Stp. IV. I have mentioned them before (including pictures) in this thread. So I'm afraid we can't pin point to one particular bunker (yet).

By the way, we're you able te receive my private message..?

All the best,

Peter

[Xavier]

hi Gert, thanks for updating on your finds, i have been followng the thread, mostly because I am always interested in people searching for their distant past, my family having emigrated forcefully from spain at the begining of the spanish civil war.
greetings.!

[hannibal2]

Hi Peter,
Very interesting observations, but sorry to say, I must disagree with your points regarding Stp IV. Here's why: It isn't only the somewhat unusual circumstance that Stp IV was a Marine, not Heer, installation that housed a Marineflakbatterie, known as M.Fl.B. Nordmole, which disqualifies it as the looked-for site. The one fact alone, namely that it was too far removed from any existing civilian residences one of which my father was billeted in to allow for a quick return on foot to the bunker in case of an Alarm, carries enough weight to effectively remove it from consideration. By contrast, it is Wn 17 which fulfills that sine qua non condition.The Museum official I mentioned confirms this view and suggests the residential area along the Seinpad as a likely location of my dad's billet. Impossible of course to know in which of the houses.

I never received your private message. Something must have gone wrong. What was its contents, may I ask?

Cheers,
Gert

[AW]

Stp. IV is "HM"

greetz
Alex

[Peter de Krom]

Hi Gert,

Thanks for keeping this discussion on edge and sharp .
I will explain my findings a bit more. Stutzpunkt IV holds both the Marine Flak Batterie Nordmole as the Panzermauer with the two 625b's (occupied by the 723 Grenadiers). See the map below (with the letters H(eer).M)(arine).). So this Stutzpunkt was both manned by the Marine Flak Abteilung 813 and Grenadiers Regiment 723 (It was not unusual to have infantry to protect a Marine Flak Batterie, especially in a Panzermauer with 625 bunkers).

I have also mentioned the old town (Seinpad) before as a possible residence for your father. I thought it was less likely though because these houses were mainly occupied by officers, at least around the time you're father was there (around that period this Old Town was destroyed, except for the Seinpad). But It is a real possibility. These houses are also very close to the 625b's as mentioned.

With all due respect to the Atlantikwall Museum, their archive with German documents is limited. If they really mentioned Wn. 17 as the spot for a Pak 40 I am really curious which source they used. But as they are also referring to a 625b, I think they mean the 625b (1405) that was the first bunker that housed the Atlantikwall Museum. But it is part of Stutzpunkt IV. Wn. 17 houses their current museum (in the 611). To further explain my findings, see the images below.

About the private message. You should be able to click on 'private messages' on the top of this forum..? In General: I was thanking you for this great opportunity/discussion and I am offering a tour through Hoek van Holland, if you are ever (want to be) in the neighbourhood.

O, and the map placed by alex, you will also see a 625 in Wn. 18, but this 625 housed a 4,7 Tsjech gun through the entire war.

To conclude (at least in my personal opinion). You're father should have been stationed in one of the 625's (1405 or 1406) in the Panzermauer of Stutzpunkt IV. See my previous posts of pictures of these bunkers (and the soldiers that occupied number 1406 around march/april 1944)

I hope these maps will make everything clear.

* extra note: on one of the maps the 7,5 fieldgun in the 611 is suddenly gone. This is probably because of the gun change and modification of the scharte of the 611 for the 5 cm K.w.K.

[hannibal2]

Hi Peter!

Thank you so much for this your most informative post of all, especially the maps (How did you ever get a hold of them?) which speak louder than any words and clearly reveal what we are searching for. I'm specifically referring to the second map which makes it plain that Wn 17 was a part of Stp IV, something I was not aware of until now. More importantly, It distinctly shows the presence of a 7,5 cm gun at Wn 17 in the extreme southeast corner of Stp IV, i.e. at a point closest to the un-evacuated and non-destroyed civilian residences (like along the Seinpad) where some German officers and NCOs like my father were billeted. That particular location is key because it puts it definitely within walking distance of those residences. This leads me to the strong belief that the gun marked with an arrow at point 17 was indeed that of my father's, at least at the time the map was drawn (date?). That it was in fact a Pak 40 should not be in doubt, seeing that the Regelbau 625 bunkers were specifically designed to house a Pak 40, whereas the 611s were intended for Feldgeschuetze in general. Of course it's possible, as you suggest, that the other Pak 40, clearly identified as such in 1405 on the first map, could be the one we're looking for (what's the date?), in which case we have a fifty-fifty situation, but that's better than nothing at all.

I'm very happy that at long last we've come to an agreement on the answer to my original question that started this long and lively debate in the first place. So do you think that we've now really come to the end of the story? I sure hope so.

Cheers,
Gert

[der bunkermann]

Peter, you are the master when it comes to the "hoek"
It's a delight to read this fact based discussion, and it must be nice to help Gert with huis search!

[Peter de Krom]

Hi Gert,

Happy to illustrate this discusion . Luckily a lot of old German maps/documents have been preserved in archives. The maps with the guns are from top to bottom: 25-11-1943, 27-03-1944 and 27-5-1944. The Pak 40 guns were only there for about 3-4 months. The FK 39 guns for about 2 months. I can't say if the le.F.H. guns were there up until the end. Any way, the 625 bunkers (and maybe you're dad) experienced a lot off change...

I still have to clear one thing op though i'm afraid . Wn. 17 was not a port of Stutzpunkt IV. If you look closely to the map it says 'Anschluss 17 H' The bunker is drawn, but it was not really a part of the Stutzpunkt (at least on paper). You're father was stationed in one for the 625b bunkers that are marked 'red' on the map of the Stutzpunkt. The 611 in Wn 17 indeed had a 7,5cm gun, but this was the Polish Fk 97. On the map it has the symbol of a Fieldgun. The Pak 40's are marked as Anti Tank with the T symbol.

All the bunkers are also in a good walking distance to the old town. So this will be our next quest, finding where you're father lived Could you share his name? Then I can be on a look out in documents (especially if he has been naughty...) and pictures.

What a pleasure it was to do this research. Thank you for the opportunity! It's such a nice thought that were are literally crossing information oceans with this information.

I'm trying to find some footage of the Pak 40 in 625b 1406, maybe even showing you're father on the roof.. I will come back to that later..!

All the best,

Peter

[Peter de Krom]

Hi Gert,

Here are a few seconds from the Wochenschau shot in Hoek van Holland of the 625b 1406 when the Pak 40 was there. It is very hard to see of course, but there is a good chance you're father was inside turning the gun (or on the roof) during the filming.

https://youtu.be/EQSxndKPBus?t=69

Cheers,

Peter

[hannibal2]

Hi Peter,

Great posts, thanks a lot. I will send you a PM with details about my father's time in HvH. It's unfortunate that I have neither the name nor the address of the family he was billeted with. He certainly must have stayed in one of the residences nearby that were not evacuated or destroyed. Are there any records in the HvH town archives which would show the names of the people and the addresses of these particular dwellings? How many of them were there anyway?

The cutout from the Deutsche Wochenschau is a huge surprise! How on earth were you able to tell that the bunker shown is in fact the 625b 1406? I happen to own a complete VHS set of all the Wochenschau newsreels produced from September 1939 until March 1945. I would really appreciate it if you could tell me the number and date of the issue from which you took the cutout. I could then find it in my collection and view the whole sequence myself.

Cheers,
Gert

[AvB]

There’s a photo series of very same bunker made by Propaganda Kompanie photographer. It’s really a one of a kind bunker so easy to spot.