horse-drawn infantry antitank guns

[Leo Niehorster]

Greetings!

Many of the infantry divisions had horse-drawn 37mm and 50mm antitank guns.
My question is: did these weapons have limbers when not motor towed?

Thanks

--
Leo

[Sheldrake]

Greetings!

Many of the infantry divisions had horse-drawn 37mm and 50mm antitank guns.
My question is: did these weapons have limbers when not motor towed?

Thanks

--
Leo

Leo,

There aren't many photos of horse drawn 37mm or 50mm Pak. There is photo of a model of a 37mm atk gun and horse limber

I think the WW2 Infantry divisions were established for MT draft for PAK , even though the 37mm gun was conceived as horse drawn with spoked wheels. That was one of Guderian's (?) criticisms of German motorisation. The anti-tank guns were motorised before the medium artillery.
According to this website packed full of organisation tables even the mountain divisions had motor transport for pak http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... _army.html

A limber is essential for using horse traction for a 37mm or 50mm Pak to a draft horses. Without a limber the trail would drop on the ground or injure a horse. The pak 36 was light and the detachment were expected to man handle it, maybe one of the horse drawn supply wagons might work.

I haven't seen pictures of a pak 50 hokked into a limber, but the barrel is quite long. The towing hook fitted to horse drawn limbers is higher off the ground than on the hook of a motor vehicle. Would there be enough clearance for the barrel of the 50mm Pak?

[jopaerya]

Hello Leo

Found only a 4.7 cm Bohler, this one from the Austrian Army ( Ebay )

Regards Jos

[Leo Niehorster]

Yes, I don't remember seeing any photographs of German horse-towed Pak galloping along either, or even moving at a tame walk, for that matter.
Here's what I have.

KStN 188c, dated 01.12.41:[TE] Infanteriepanzerjägerzug (zu 2 Gesch. 5cm Pak)
  Line 23:  2× sechsspg. Geschütze (5cm Pak) + 12× le. Zugpferde
  Line 24:  2× vierspg. Munitionswagen (Protzfahrzeuge) + 8× le. Zugpferde
  Line 25:  2× zweispg. Munitionswagen (Protzfahrzeuge) + 4 s. Zugpferde

KStN 188d, dated 01.12.41:[TE] Infanteriepanzerjägerzug (3,7cm Pak)
  Line 23: 3× vierspg. Geschütze (3,7cm Pak) + 12× le. Zugpferde
  Line 24: 3× zweispg. Munitionswagen (Protzfahrzeuge) + 6 s. Zugpferde

You say Pak have limbers (Protze), which makes sense.
Where are the limbers for the Pak?

In English, Munitionswagen = caisson, and Protzfahrzeug = limber, each with their own horse teams.
So, which are these Munitionswagen (Protzfahrzeuge)?

I was hoping photograph(s) could dispel some of the confusion.

Cheers

--
Leo

[peeved]

Makeshift limber from exp. eBay.de N:o 381286054599 (Horse owner on board?).

Markus

[Alanmccoubrey]

Leo, while I cannot lay hands on it at the moment (of course) I have a copy of a photograph of several Pak 38's being towed by horsed limbers. I wills search and see if I can find it.

[shamirnewell]

How about this http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=45

[Sheldrake]

How about this http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=45

Isn't that a French gun designed for horse traction?

[shamirnewell]

How about this http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=45

Isn't that a French gun designed for horse traction?

It is a Pak 97/38. French barrel mounted on a Pak 38 chassis. Notice the steel wheels with rubber and not wood spoke with metal.

[Knouterer]

The Infanterie-Teilfahrzeug 14, originally intended as limber for the 75 mm infantry gun (IG 18), was later on also used for towing the Pak 38, Nebelwerfer 41, and very probably other weapons in that weight class (up to a ton or so).
First picture from Wolfgang Fleischer, Bespannte Fahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres bis 1945.

[peeved]

According to Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945 by Wolfgang Fleischer & Richard Eiermann this 3,7 cm Pak is limbered on Granatwerferkarren If.9.

Markus

[Leo Niehorster]

Many thanks for your comments and photographs.

We're getting closer.

According to Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945 by Wolfgang Fleischer & Richard Eiermann, pages 74 and 75, the limbers of the If. 3 and 4 were also used as limbers for the 3,7cm and 5cm Pak.

Now I amd still wondering about the Munitionswagen (Protzfahrzeuge)

This is how I imagine a gun team to be organized on the march:

horse-drawn_inf-pak.gif (984 Bytes) Viewed 1860 times

Comments and further ideas welcome.

As always, cheers.

--
Leo

[SIS 5]

Hi Leo, hi Markus,

here a link to a site with the information about an "Infanteriepanzerabwehrkompanie" (zu 12 Geschützen) (mit tschechischem Gerät ausgestattet)
K.St.N.186 (1.10.1939)
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1861okt39.htm
Here some information about the "einspänniger Gebirgskarren M. 15" (out of the book "Bespannte Fahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres bis 1945" by Wolfgang Fleischer):
"Der Gebirgskarren war 1915 in Verbindung mit der 7,5cm-Gebirgskanone M. 15 beim k.u.k. Österreichisch-Ungarischen Heer zur Einführung gelangt. Er wurde einspännig gefahren und als Munitions-, Vorrats-, Verpflegungs- und Gepäckkarren bei der Gebirgsartillerie verwendet. Die Masse der Fahrzeuge kam 1938-39 aus österreischischen und tschechischen Beständen in deutschen Besitz. Hier fanden sie, einspännig gefahren, im Rahmen der Gebirgsbatterien mit 7,5cm-Gebirgskanonen M. 15 Verwendung, wurden aber bereits 1939 als Protzen für 3,7cm-Panzerabwehrkanonen, weiterhin als Munitionskarren M. 15 (t) an Infanterie-Panzerabwehrkompanien und -züge zu drei 3,7cm-Geschützen L/45 deutscher Herkunft abgegeben."

Here three pics with limbers, maybe the Gebirgskarren M. 15 (t).

Markus, could that information be wrong in "Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945" by Wolfgang Fleischer & Richard Eiermann. For me it is not a Granatwerferkarren If.9, but the Gebirgskarren M. 15 (t) or another cartridge.

Best regards

Bert

[peeved]

Markus, could that information be wrong in "Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945" by Wolfgang Fleischer & Richard Eiermann. For me it is not a Granatwerferkarren If.9, but the Gebirgskarren M. 15 (t) or another cartridge.

Hi Bert,

The carts in your photos do seem to match the Fleischer/Eiermann pic much better than an If.9.

Regards,
Markus

[Leo Niehorster]

Thank you gentlemen.

They probably discovered that one horse was not enough to tow the limber and the gun (as per the KStN 186 dated 01.10.39 and 01.05.41), as the KStN 188d dated 01.11.1941 for the 37mm Pak shows 4-horse-team per gun+limber.

And, in the case of KStN 188d for the 50mm Pak, the document shows a 6-horse-team per gun+limber.

Cheers

--
Leo