Railroad Guns Wrecks

[JABIER]

Andrzej Ditrich found a picture of a RR gun wreck with the following caption:
"As we were going to Altena from Werdahl"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... a#p2049216

On 15 April 45, the 3Bn 393rd IR was on that route, and that pic with another of the gun breech can be found on page 57 of the book: "A pictorial account of the 393rd Infantry Regiment in combat, 1944-1945", by Ernest W. Fritz.
Online here: http://digicom.bpl.lib.me.us/ww_reg_his/57/

On 15 April, the 99th ID reported the capture of "a 16 inch RR rifle" at coordinates F010989. Unfortunately, there is a mistake in the coordinates, because the square wF is far to the west, and that point in the wG square is far from the rail tracks.

RR Gun
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... 3brkhd.jpg

Map
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... imhsuo.jpg

Regards,

[JABIER]

In the book Eisenbahnartillerie by Wolfgang Gückelhorn and Detlev Paul are mentioned some railroad guns in Vormwald (Also on line here: http://heimatverein-vormwald.de/index.p ... &Itemid=58).

The 8th ID reported the following on 07 April 45:
"Huge quantity of supplies along railroad track from G288634 to G303631 were discovered today. Among the booty were 6 - 350mm guns mounted on RR cars, 3 being in good shape. Also 4 large warehouses stocked with French, American and German weapons and ammunition plus 200 boxcars were in area."

To which unit belonged theese guns?

Also on 12 April were found more RR guns:
"Our forces discovered the following in a tunnel at F923781 -- 6 railroad guns, 2 locomotives with steam up plus 30 assorted cars in which living accommodations were available; 2 - 20mm flak guns and 3 car loads of ammunition. The personnel manning these guns were among those reached our PW cage."
But in this case the guns belonged to the 416 Railway AA Bn. (Schwere Flakabteilung 416 ( E ), 12,8 cm Flak guns)

Map
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... afd3ty.jpg

Regards,

[JABIER]

Report from 11 April 45:

"In the railroad tunnel at R906-968, on the NE side of the town of EBERBACH has been discovered a big addition to the list of artillery pieces abandoned by the Germans. This a 340mm railroad gun, model 1912 of French manufacture (Schneider) date of construction 1914, and modified in 1918. Darkness of the tunnel prevented detailed study, but the weapon is approximately 50 feet long, of massive construction, including a breech ring about 4 ft on a side with a very thick, heavy breechblock, and mounted on a high ruggedly built body supported by multiple trucks. Apparently firing stresses are transmitted through the carriage to the ground by a series of large pressure plates which are lowered from their travelling position under the car to the ground by individual jacks. The cars accompanying the gun car consist of a generator unit, possibly for supplying power to electrically driven elevation mechanism, power rammer, and shell-handling mechanism, and ammunition and crew cars. Some ammunition and powder are still in the magazine car, and the gun itself appears to be in good condition. The projectile has two copper rotating bands, widely separated, and is not streamlined. It will be recalled that early in January, XV Corps elements were shelled by a very heavy gun, identified at the time as a 340mm French railroad gun, and it is quite possible that this gun is the same one. From the railroad dispatch record affixed to each car, it appears that the ultimate destination of the train was Ulm, by way of Eberbach, but evidently rail cuts or lack of an engine caused the abandonment."

Map:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... yotsbl.png

Regards,

[JABIER]

Hi,
In this forum http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/ ... 8,page=all there was an investigation about the "Soest" RR gun photo. It seems that after all they discovered the wreck place. Herne railway yard, if I have not understood wrong. Please, anyone who speaks German could confirm the place?

Pic:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... ldlcgh.jpg

[jopaerya]

Thanks JABIER

[Manuferey]

Report from 11 April 45:

"In the railroad tunnel at R906-968, on the NE side of the town of EBERBACH has been discovered a big addition to the list of artillery pieces abandoned by the Germans. This a 340mm railroad gun, model 1912 of French manufacture (Schneider) date of construction 1914, and modified in 1918. Darkness of the tunnel prevented detailed study, but the weapon is approximately 50 feet long, of massive construction, including a breech ring about 4 ft on a side with a very thick, heavy breechblock, and mounted on a high ruggedly built body supported by multiple trucks. Apparently firing stresses are transmitted through the carriage to the ground by a series of large pressure plates which are lowered from their travelling position under the car to the ground by individual jacks. The cars accompanying the gun car consist of a generator unit, possibly for supplying power to electrically driven elevation mechanism, power rammer, and shell-handling mechanism, and ammunition and crew cars. Some ammunition and powder are still in the magazine car, and the gun itself appears to be in good condition. The projectile has two copper rotating bands, widely separated, and is not streamlined. It will be recalled that early in January, XV Corps elements were shelled by a very heavy gun, identified at the time as a 340mm French railroad gun, and it is quite possible that this gun is the same one. From the railroad dispatch record affixed to each car, it appears that the ultimate destination of the train was Ulm, by way of Eberbach, but evidently rail cuts or lack of an engine caused the abandonment."

Map:
Regards,

Jabier,

We discussed and posted pictures of this French 340 mm gun in the following thread starting with Jos' post of 24 Sept 2014 :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=495

We can see the entrance of the tunnel on the picture I posted on 22 Oct 2014.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

Hi,
In this forum http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/ ... 8,page=all there was an investigation about the "Soest" RR gun photo. It seems that after all they discovered the wreck place. Herne railway yard, if I have not understood wrong. Please, anyone who speaks German could confirm the place?

Pic:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... ldlcgh.jpg

Great search ! We identified the gun as an ex-French 320 mm Mle 1870-93 or 1870-30 and posted a 2nd picture of the Soest RR gun on 30 Nov 2016 in this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1756823

Emmanuel

[JABIER]

Hi, Manuferey. Thanks for the information, and specially for the Jagdtiger photo from 2015!

29 March 45, 33rd AR, 3rd AD
"The reconnaissance Co. Ran into bazooka and small arms fire about 7000 yards north of Marburg. The main body swung east and outflanked this strong point and continued down the main route. Dog Co. Ran into bazooka and small arms fire and lost one tank at Münchhausen wG689629. This position was outflanked and Easy Co. Took the lead and continued down the main road. The force continued north, destroying five trucks, capturing approximately one hundred seventy (170) prisoners and overran two large railroad guns. […] We bivouaced for the night at Twiste 050860. The force has traveled a distance of 48 miles today."

Maybe the RR Guns on the following pictures, which are said to be from the 3rd Armored
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bEjlB275T-U/S ... nnon_1.jpg

From 25 March to 1 April 45, the 3rd AD reported 1 RR Gun destroyed or captured, but some times the materiel found already destroyed was not considered for the division statistics.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... bowrtx.jpg

Also on 9 April the division destroyed four more RR Guns in Emmenhausen area, but this time 128mm Flak guns. (Only three on the pic)

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... 9jt0kz.jpg

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=193648

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... grzpf7.jpg


Regards,

[Manuferey]

Also on 9 April the division destroyed four more RR Guns in Emmanhausen area, but this time 128mm Flak guns. (Only three on the pic)
Regards,

Jabier,

I cannot find any Emmanhausen in Germany with Google. Are you sure of the spelling?

I have seen a caption of the US Signal Corps picture of the three 12.8 cm Flak guns mentioning the location as close to Duderstadt in Lower Saxony.

Emmanuel

[Jan-Hendrik]

It is Emmenhausen, Landkreis Göttingen.

Jan-Hendrik

[JABIER]

Also on 9 April the division destroyed four more RR Guns in Emmanhausen area, but this time 128mm Flak guns. (Only three on the pic)
Regards,

Sorry, the place is Emmenhausen.
Although the Signal Corps picture has this caption:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... sribyy.jpg

In the following Forum there is a Now & them pic. It seems the same place.

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=193648

Regards,

[JABIER]

From "BLACK HAWKS OVER THE DANUBE":
15 April 45
"The 3rd Bn., 342nd Inf. was assigned the mission of taking Lethmathe [from Hohenlimburg], another smaller industrial city near Hohenlimburg. This battalion was subjected to heavy artillery fire on the hill above the town, and then in a flanking movement instigated during the course of the attack, captured the city in late afternoon. The taking of Letmathe was featured by house to house fighting, and the final objective was reached when Pfc. Ralph Madison, Co. L-342nd Inf. surprised a MG nest with a hand grenade and then led a bayonet attack on its stunned occupants.
At the edge of Letmathe Black Hawk doughboys found part evidence of what made life so miserable for them the past few days. The Jerry had in operation a battery of 16-inch naval guns, evidently made for some battleship, set up and in operation against our ground troops. Also captured at Letmathe was a Battalion of Railway Artillery guns. The 342nd Inf. took over 10,000 prisoners besides large quantities of war loot this day."

No information about the Battalion of Railway Artillery guns. The 99th ID reported only a PW from the 674 RR Arty Bn taken at Iserlohn.

Railroad guns were reported in the area, although some of them could have been Flak guns.

13/04 - At rA95950865 3 RR Guns
14/04 - French Civilian reports 3 railroad guns between WESTIG and HEMER
14/04 - At rA91861545 4 RR Guns
15/04 - French PW reports railroad guns travelling from bridge at rA957093 to railroad junction approx 1 km to the south.

Map:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... ukg66m.jpg

Enjoy the weekend!

[Manuferey]

It is Emmenhausen, Landkreis Göttingen.
Jan-Hendrik

Thank you Jan-Hendrick.

Emmenhausen is west of Göttingen and Duderstad is east of it.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

From "BLACK HAWKS OVER THE DANUBE":
15 April 45
"[...]The Jerry had in operation a battery of 16-inch naval guns, evidently made for some battleship, set up and in operation against our ground troops. Also captured at Letmathe was a Battalion of Railway Artillery guns. [...]

I have never heard of a static battery of 406 mm (16 in.) guns outside the coastline of the Atlantikwall. It seems to me that the so-called naval gun battery and the RR gun battalion are one and the same. The RR guns would then be of a large caliber e.g. 24 cm to 38 cm but definitely not 40.6 cm.

Emmanuel

[JABIER]

Hi, Manuferey
Sometimes reports are not very accurate, mostly with the caliber of the guns. Information about the last months of the war is scarce so even a inacurrate report could lead to a good identification. I have found these reports searching for Jagdtigers, I hope them could be of interest for RR guns fans.

Today the Metz wreck:

Found in the Field Artillery Magazine, December 1945

PHOTO INTELLIGENCE vs THE RAILWAY GUN, By Lt. Edwin Hartrich

The Third Army at that time was already plagued by an elusive 280-mm railway gun that was firing from the deep rear of the Metz battle zone and was harassing CPs and lines of communications. So the services of all intelligence-collecting agencies were called on to confirm this new report.

The Corps Artillery Photo Interpretation Team, under command of Capt. John Whittlesey, was ordered to locate the new gun on the latest photo cover. As the accompanying pictures illustrate, a railway gun with its component parts is not easy to hide or to camouflage. The train usually consists of five cars—the gun in its special mounting, an ordnance and generator car, two cars to carry the disassembled track for turntable and spurs, and a crew car—plus the locomotive.

However, the latest sorties revealed no trace of the 380-mm gun or of its train. Relying on the accuracy of the agent's report and estimating the train to be about 500 feet in length, Capt. Whittlesey found on the photos of Metz what he considered the only likely place where the train could be hidden.

Immediately to the south of the main railway station in Metz was a narrow, 1,000-foot-long freight station or warehouse. On the west side of the building a railroad track led in under a weather over-hang which completely coveted the track from above and provided ample concealment for the reported gun and train.

The conclusion was also based on the premise that the Germans would probably keep the train intact, rather than break it up and hide the individual cars in the Metz rail network, for the 280-mm gun which had been firing into the American zone had been constantly on the move so that it never could be located by sound and flash or on aerial photos, at least not long enough for counterbattery or air attack to knock it out of action.

On receiving the photo interpretation report with the freight station as the recommended target, corps artillery arranged for an Arty/R shoot. The shells were adjusted on the target from a P-51 reconn plane hovering above Metz. Approximately 150 rounds were fired.

The warehouse was reduced to a shamble, with considerable damage also inflicted on the neighboring railroad station and the track network in the area. Within 24 hours a report was received from the same secret agent in Metz that the 380-mm and its train had been completely wrecked in the shelling, without ever having been in action.

The date seems to be 21 Oct 1944:

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/41376-563rd-s ... ion/page-2

Oct 21
G-2 intelligence reported that a large railway gun which had been shelling Nancy with 240-mm shells was in the German held railroad shops in Metz for repairs. A pilot of the 10th Photo Reconnaissance Group adjusted a 155-mm gun battalion upon the shops and 140 rounds were fired for effect. Sixty of these rounds were fired under close observation. The firing was concluded with 6 rounds of white phosphorus shells, which caused large fires. An intelligence report indicated demolition of the gun, 22 cannoneer casualties and complete wreckage of the area.

Another view:
https://books.google.es/books?redir_esc ... th&f=false

AIR SUPPORT FOR PATTON´S THIRD ARMY
XX Corps executed a successful counter-battery action against a 280mm railroad gun in October. Information about its location came from aerial photographs, the French Resistance, and railroad workers. Intelligence personnel concluded that the gun was in a shed in a rail yard in Metz. XX Corps fired 140 rounds at the target, with help from XIX TAC´s 12th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron. The position was demolished.

So, 380mm, 280mm or even 240mm. I have read that the 380mm guns of E-Bat 686 were not in the West front in October 44. Maybe this was a 280mm RR gun under repairs.

Aerial pic:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x33 ... c4llm5.jpg

Map
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... e-XXII.jpg
Regards,