Interchangeabilty of ammunition

[Jens Andersen]

Hi,

I always thought that the German use of all those different Beutewaffen posed big logistal problems.

For example, in the Stützpunktgruppe Bulbjerg-Vust there were four differennt types of medium mortars: 8 cm Gr.W. 34, 8,1 cm Danish, 8,14 cm French and 8,2 cm Russian.

As can be seen from the document below, it seems that all the mortar type could use the German standard grenade. So, at least when it came to ammunition for those mortars, the supply problem wasn't that great.

Jens

(document that I got from a new Freiburg acquaintance: Adrian Wettstein)

[ROLAND1369]

The manual ignores many important facts. The Windage, space between the shell and barrel, increases with caliber and results in a loss of muzzle velocity and thus range. It results in the original firing tables for the ammunition becoming invalid and results in increased variance of range between shots as well as increased dispersion at target. Depending on how much the Muzzle velocity is lowered and the design of the fuze the number of dud rounds will probably be increased due to the non arming of the fuze. All of the fire control equipment, plotting boards sights become useless with the German ammunition and of course the German equipment also becomes useless with the foreign mortars. A field expedient solution for the German 7th parachute Regiment in Normandy was to use pieces of blanket to wrap their German 80 mm mortar rounds in order to get a reasonable range from their 82 MM Russian Mortars. As an old mortarman of considerable practical experience, I shudder to think of the inaccuracy this caused as well as the number of misfires cause by rounds not hitting the firing pin due to the uneven force.Even the Russian mortar sights are marked with 6000 mills deflection as opposed to the German and western Standard 6400 mills. The point being, just because it fits doesn't mean that it works well.

[JKernwerk]

Could it be that these Mortars all originated from the French Brandt mortar?
JK

[ROLAND1369]

You are correct. They all are variations of the 81 mm Brandt. In addition both the Japanese and Italian armies use a copy of the same weapon. The Brandt itself is an improvement of the WW I 3 inch British Stokes mortar. Thus all of the major WW II combatants used a version of the 81 MM Brandt with the exception of the British who stuck to their improved 3 in(76 MM) mortar.

[Clive Mortimore]

You are correct. They all are variations of the 81 mm Brandt. In addition both the Japanese and Italian armies use a copy of the same weapon. The Brandt itself is an improvement of the WW I 3 inch British Stokes mortar. Thus all of the major WW II combatants used a version of the 81 MM Brandt with the exception of the British who stuck to their improved 3 in(76 MM) mortar.

Although called the '3-inch mortar' by the British Army, its calibre was actually 3.209 in (81.5 mm). The propellant used by the British did not give the 3 inch the same range as the German and Italian mortars. The use of captured Axis ammunition was wide spread in the North Africa campaign. By 1942 new propellant was introduced increasing the range from 1600 yards to 2800 yards.

[ROLAND1369]

Thank you for the correction. I had not properly researched my manuals before speaking on the 3 inch mortar. However I would still say is still the only one not a clone of the Brandt. I am curious about the propellant. To increase the range they must have increased the chamber pressure greatly, which means a seriously overbuilt tube. I once, in place far away, while trying to out shoot a 85 mm gun, increased the range of an 81 mm m 29 mortar with the expedient of adding a tablespoon of gasoline to the tube before dropping in the round. We go 400 more meters out of the tube but lost the engagement.

[Clive Mortimore]

The Brandt was a clone of the Stokes.

[Zünder]

Great document.
@Jens: do you know the filenumber this document came out off ?
As for facts ignored by this document, as mentioned above: i think it would be verify what exactly can be found in the H.Dv. 119's (Schusstafel) mentioned in the document. If i read this correctly, the 8 cm Wgr. 34 should be included within these firing tables.

Zünder,

www.wk2ammo.com

[Poot]

Can anyone summarize the section dealing with rifle and machine gun ammunition (Section 1 in the above document)? I tried to translate it, but it's coming out garbled.
Thank you,
Pat

[Jens Andersen]

It doesn't make much sence, unless you know what para. 438 in Allgemeine-Heeres-Mitteilungen 1940 says:

"1. Ammuntion for rifle and machine gun
The in Allgemeine-Heeres-Mitteilung 1940 para. 438 given guidelines are still valid with following exceptions:
Blank cartridge (Czech) with yellow and black projectile are blocked for handing out and shooting."

Jens

[Poot]

Thank you, Jens!
I hadn't even thought of 'A.H.M.' meaning Allgemeine-Heeres Mitteilung. That helps, thanks!
Pat