Channel Islands Wa Pruf.Fest bunkers

[jopaerya]

Hello All

Found a list from june 1944 with these number from the Channel Islands .

Wa.Pruf. Fest Unterstande 25 x
Wa.Pruf. Fest Gefechtstande 6 x
Wa.Pruf. Fest Kampstande 26 x

The Unterstande are most likely from the drawing Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 44 but when I count the numbers
of these bunker in R.R. latest book there are more then 25 . Is there a exact count of the socalled U.Wa.Fest ?

Also like to know how many Jagerstande and Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 56 or 3 S Wa.Fest ( early 3 schartenturm bunker )
there are in the C.I. . The 6 x Gefechtstande are a mystery for me . Any help is welcome, also counts from the
seperate islands are welcome .

Regards Jos

[AvB]

For Alderney:
Unterstand WaKoFest:
1 x Stp Biberkopf
1 x Wn Hafen Süd
1 x Wn Dohlenfeste

Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 56 or 3(4) S Wa.Fest:
1 x Stp Biberkopf

Jägerstand:
1 x Stp Türkenburg
1 x Stp Biberkopf

Jersey:
Unterstand WaKoFest:
2 x Wn Lewis Tower
1 x Wn Steps 43
1 x Wn Kempt Tower
1 x Wn High Tower
1 x Stp Elizabeth
1 x Stp Corbiere

Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 56 or 3(4) S Wa.Fest:
1 x Wn La Thiebaut
1 x Wn Steps 43
1 x Wn La Mare Mill
1 x Wn Düne (used as Sechsschartenturm)

Guernsey:
Unterstand WaKoFest:
1 x Wn Krossen
1 x Stp Langenberg
1 x Wn Grüne Düne
1 x Wn Coboufer
1 x Stp Rotenstein
2 x Wn Perleberg
1 x Wn Spitzpunkt
2 x Stp Grossfels
1 x Wn Rundbucht-Mitte

Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 56 or 3(4) S Wa.Fest:
1 xWn Gründe Düne
1 x Spitzpunkt
1 x Stp Rotenstein
1 x Stp Krähennest
1 x Wn Coboufer

Not a complete list of the Jägerstände and I've might missed one?

[AvB]

The Gefechtsstände, could these be the double storied 609 look-a-likes?

[jopaerya]

Thanks Arthur

From a lot of books en internetsite's I have found this . Please correct me when I am wrong .

Unterstande = Jersey 10 x - Guernsey 15 x - Alderney 3 x ( Total 28 )
3 Schartenturms = Jersey 1 x - Guernsey 5 x - Alderney 1 x ( Total 7 )
Jägerstande + Jersey 9 x - Guernsey 10 x - Alderney 2 x ( Total 21 )

Regards Jos

[M19 MADMAL]

Thanks Arthur

From a lot of books en internetsite's I have found this . Please correct me when I am wrong .

Unterstande = Jersey 10 x - Guernsey 15 x - Alderney 3 x ( Total 28 )
3 Schartenturms = Jersey 1 x - Guernsey 5 x - Alderney 1 x ( Total 7 )
Jägerstande + Jersey 9 x - Guernsey 10 x - Alderney 2 x ( Total 21 )

Regards Jos

Hi All,

There are 30 Jaegerstand in the C.I. = Jersey x 13 - Guernsey x 15 - Alderney x 2 - (Plus an extra 1 in Denmark at Nymindegab!).

Unterstand WaKoFest for Jersey are 11:
2 x Wn. Lewis Tower
2 x Wn. Kempt Tower
1 x Ein. Butch
1 x Wn. High Tower
2 x Wn Steps Punkt 43
1 x Wn. La Carriere
1 x Stp. Corbiere
1 x Wn. Elizabeth Castle Nord

Unterstand WaKoFest for Guernsey are 12 (as listed in Guernsey's German bunkers so there may be more?)
1 x Wn. Dohlenturm
1 x Wn. Golfwerk
1 x Wn. Spitzpunkt
2 x Stp. Grossfels
1 x Wn. Coboufer
1 x Stp. Rotenstein
1 x Wn Rundturm
2 x Wn. Perleberg
1 x Stp. Langenberg
1 x Wn. Gruene Duene

Alderney has 3 as Arthur states.


Wa.Pruf. Fest Gefechtstande:
These sound like the ''Kernwerk Bunkers" or 609SK and are basically a Type 608 on 2 floors. There are 3 each on Jersey and Guernsey.

Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 56 or 3(4) S Wa.Fest:
Correct on 7 examples = Jersey x 1 - Guernsey x 5 - Alderney x 1

Regards,
Malcolm

[M19 MADMAL]

Jersey also has 3 x 6 S WaKoFest where a 20P7 is used as a Sechsschartentürm.
1 x Wn La Thiebaut
1 x Wn Steps punkt 43
1 x Wn Düne (photo below)

These have the same type of observers position which is set at 45 degrees like the Unterstande and 4-Sch. WaKoFest

Regards,
Malcolm

[jopaerya]

Thank you very much Malcolm

The Unterstande fits very close 26 x Unterstand WaKoFest or Wa.Pruf.Fest I Nr 44 found and 25 on the list .
Also the Gefechtstande could fit exact 6 x
The Kampstande is a other problem , maybe I must exclude the 30 Jägerstande from the list from 26 bunkers .

Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

If we count the 3 and 6 scharten bunkers together we have a total of 10 bunkers
any other idea's of WaKoFest Kampstande in the C.I. , still there are 16 missing .

Regards Jos

[AvB]

How about the Festungspak casemates?

[jopaerya]

That is a good option Arthur .

I will start a count of these 4.7 cm Festungspak bunkers in the C.I.

Regards Jos

[M19 MADMAL]

That is a good option Arthur .

I will start a count of these 4.7 cm Festungspak bunkers in the C.I.

Regards Jos

Hi Jos,

Jersey & Alderney are correct, not so sure on Guernsey!

Type 631b - 12 on Jersey:
1 x Lewis Tower
2 x Wn. La Crabiere
2 x Wn. High Tower
1 x Wn. Les Brayes
1 x Wn. Bel Royal
1 x Wn. Millbrook
1 x Wn. First Tower
1 x Wn. Grand Hotel
1 x Wn. Victoria Pier (This is an SK and is combined with a L 401 and a Flakvierling was mounted on the roof)
1 x Grande Charriere

Type 631b - 10??? on Guernsey (Info from Guernsey's German bunkers which does not always state if the casemate is a Type 631b or 676!)
2 x Wn. Coboufer
1 x Wn. Rundturm
1 x Wn. Rundbucht-Mitte
2 x Wn. Margen
2 x Stp. Langenberg
2 x Wn. Gruene Dune

Type 631b - 1 on Alderney:
1 x Wn. Piratenschloss

These bunkers (631b) and also Jeagerstand's can have either observers open positions or Tobruks so don't know if they fall in the WaKoFest type as the 'true' WaKoFest's only have observers positions which are not the same design as the observers positions found on Jaegerstand's and the 631b's.

The 631b bunkers in the C.I. are not the exactly the same in design as plans for the Type 631b shown in RR books.

Regards,
Malcolm

[jopaerya]

Thanks again for your great work Malcolm

[jopaerya]

3 scharten turm = 7 x
6 schartenturm = 3 x
4.7 cm bunkers = 23 x

Total of 33 bunkers , strangly on the list of the Kampstande Wa.Pr. is the number
of 26 x and also in a other colum 5 x so that would be 31 in total, that is more likely ??

Regards Jos

P.S. Malcolm, looking at the lay-out of the bunker beside the 631b at Victoria Pier ,
I would say a Fl 242 but the flak emplacement is typical .

[grappener]

Hi All

Great thread, and finally a bit of validation that 3-S.Wa.Pru.Fest. (or 4-S. or 6-S. etc) is a viable naming convention! Myself and Malcolm have had discussion in this area for some considerable time now without any validation, so this is a great find!

Part of the mystery has always been why did the C.I. cupolas not have the 3P7 cupola that they should have had as per the Wa.Pru.Fest. I Nr.56 Drawing in the Entwicklungsbereicht der Waffenkommisson Fest Report (Mappe 3) of April 1941 instead of the 20P7's that are in place. Who knows, maybe in the O.T. marshalling yards around St. Malo or Granville (or wherever) that was all they had to ship and so the difference was seeded.

Another "contender" for the list is possibly the 7.5cm PaK Unterstellräumen at Wn. La Thiebaut in Jersey. The gun shelter being in an elevated position to the main bunker, Haven't seen anything in the 600 series yet that looks quite like it, but in the Wa.Pru.Fest designs Wa.Pru.Fest. I Nr.68 curiously shows the gun shelter but not the rest of the bunker? and the rough translation seems to be "Comparison of current and future PaK shelters" in essence a "rooftop" PaK shelter design rolling straight out onto flat land (exactly like La Thiebaut), unlike the (then) current design where the PaK Shelter was at the bottom of a slope....bad for flooding and getting the cannon mobilised. Yet the Nr.68 design doesn't actually show the bunker layout? only the comparisons of current and new PaK Shelter designs? Can this bunker be one of the missing ones?

Then there are also the 2 mysterious designs at Wn. Dune for 7.5cm PaK's also. So far no 600 series evidence and no Wa.Pru.Fest. designs as yet? Arthur these were some of the last bunkers we went into last time you came over.

Am not suggesting these are part of the 1944 Wa.Pru.Fest. numbers from Jos just yet as feel they need a bit more validation as there is no definitive proof on the ones at Wn. Dune, and only "half" a drawing that sort of shows what it going on at Wn. La Thiebaut.

The plot thickens!

Grappener

[TH]

Part of the mystery has always been why did the C.I. cupolas not have the 3P7 cupola that they should have had as per the Wa.Pru.Fest. I Nr.56 Drawing in the Entwicklungsbereicht der Waffenkommisson Fest Report (Mappe 3) of April 1941 instead of the 20P7's that are in place. Who knows, maybe in the O.T. marshalling yards around St. Malo or Granville (or wherever) that was all they had to ship and so the difference was seeded.

That's interesting, because in the same report 6-embrasured cupolas are deemed obsolete, as they were regarded as highly vulnerable to direct fire. Furthermore it suggests to use the remaining 6-embrasured cupolas (including the 20P7) as 2- or 3-embrasured cupolas.
Looking at the numbers of 634 etc. constructed, that suggestion was obviously disregarded in later years, but perhaps it was the "state of the art" when construction on the Channel Islands began?

Haven't seen anything in the 600 series yet that looks quite like it, but in the Wa.Pru.Fest designs Wa.Pru.Fest. I Nr.68 curiously shows the gun shelter but not the rest of the bunker? and the rough translation seems to be "Comparison of current and future PaK shelters" in essence a "rooftop" PaK shelter design rolling straight out onto flat land (exactly like La Thiebaut), unlike the (then) current design where the PaK Shelter was at the bottom of a slope....bad for flooding and getting the cannon mobilised. Yet the Nr.68 design doesn't actually show the bunker layout? only the comparisons of current and new PaK Shelter designs?

It's indeed just a comparision to illustrate the new concept. Drawing Nr. 52 shows it incorporated into a complete bunker.