Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Hello,
As there is no general topic on this stronghold, i'll start one... because in shortest time possible I will be posting the results of my wartime overlay for this stronghold. All previous detailed overlays for this stronghold were based on the IGN 1957 aerials, but at that time the bunkers and beachdefences (sea/tankwalls) on the shoreline were no longer in their original place.
But thanks to Alain Chazette, who provided me with some 1944 aerials of the stronghold it was possible to do an overlay of the stronghold with everything in it's original position. As many of the bunkers on the 1944 aerials are stil nicely camouflaged and dug under it is hard to find some of them (especially the huge L480), but in that case the 1957 IGN aerials came in handy. As the stronghold lay in the middle of nowhere at the time, I had to overlay the aerials with aerials of different era to find enough reference points to be able to do the overlay with a precision of about 1 metre.
All bunkericons are drawn to scale, and where possible I used the measurements of the stronghold which were made postwar, on of which some can be found posted here on the forum thanks to Pierrot.
.... Still one questions remains, before I can finish the overlay... Which gunbunker was standing here???
On the below photo's we can clearly see a flanking gunbunker sitting in between the smaller and larger seawall; the flanking wall is clearly visible but it seems a bit far a way from the line which seems to indicate the scharte of the bunker sitting here.
There's some discussion about which gunbunker was present here... and I'm confronted with this same issue; some (most) say it's a R667 others say it's a R680 or R677... perhaps even another R612??
It is hard to see the entire outline of the bunker, but i guess the dotted line nails it. The road for the gun leading to the back of the bunker and the shadowline possibly indicating the sharte show where to centre the bunker...
If we do so,
- the R680 is the most perfect match..; but it is still far away from it's flanking wall; this would mean a 4m exteriourwall on this side of the bunker or the bunker has a prolonged frontwall or the bunker is built into the larger seawall and thus the flankingwall has to be seen seperately from the bunker.
- the R667 seem way to small but mostly a gun can't be rolled out of a R667 through the backside so there is no need for a road to haul out the gun, certainly not such a wide road (but! the R667 exactly fits the shadowline indicating the sharte)
- both the R612 and R677 could fit the spot but their backsides would exceed the dotted line (which would still be possible if looking at the point where the road seems to start) and as with the R680 the flankingwall would be about 2m too far (in case of 2m exteriour walls)
When looking at the debris on the 1957 aerials, the only bunker which seems to exactly fit the largest pieces of concrete is the R680..; also on this aerial the flanking wall can be seen laying loose from the bunkerdebris... which could indicate the flanking wall was not a solid part of the bunker
What do you think?? I'm going for a R680 unless you can proof otherwise.
As there is no general topic on this stronghold, i'll start one... because in shortest time possible I will be posting the results of my wartime overlay for this stronghold. All previous detailed overlays for this stronghold were based on the IGN 1957 aerials, but at that time the bunkers and beachdefences (sea/tankwalls) on the shoreline were no longer in their original place.
But thanks to Alain Chazette, who provided me with some 1944 aerials of the stronghold it was possible to do an overlay of the stronghold with everything in it's original position. As many of the bunkers on the 1944 aerials are stil nicely camouflaged and dug under it is hard to find some of them (especially the huge L480), but in that case the 1957 IGN aerials came in handy. As the stronghold lay in the middle of nowhere at the time, I had to overlay the aerials with aerials of different era to find enough reference points to be able to do the overlay with a precision of about 1 metre.
All bunkericons are drawn to scale, and where possible I used the measurements of the stronghold which were made postwar, on of which some can be found posted here on the forum thanks to Pierrot.
.... Still one questions remains, before I can finish the overlay... Which gunbunker was standing here???
On the below photo's we can clearly see a flanking gunbunker sitting in between the smaller and larger seawall; the flanking wall is clearly visible but it seems a bit far a way from the line which seems to indicate the scharte of the bunker sitting here.
There's some discussion about which gunbunker was present here... and I'm confronted with this same issue; some (most) say it's a R667 others say it's a R680 or R677... perhaps even another R612??
It is hard to see the entire outline of the bunker, but i guess the dotted line nails it. The road for the gun leading to the back of the bunker and the shadowline possibly indicating the sharte show where to centre the bunker...
If we do so,
- the R680 is the most perfect match..; but it is still far away from it's flanking wall; this would mean a 4m exteriourwall on this side of the bunker or the bunker has a prolonged frontwall or the bunker is built into the larger seawall and thus the flankingwall has to be seen seperately from the bunker.
- the R667 seem way to small but mostly a gun can't be rolled out of a R667 through the backside so there is no need for a road to haul out the gun, certainly not such a wide road (but! the R667 exactly fits the shadowline indicating the sharte)
- both the R612 and R677 could fit the spot but their backsides would exceed the dotted line (which would still be possible if looking at the point where the road seems to start) and as with the R680 the flankingwall would be about 2m too far (in case of 2m exteriour walls)
When looking at the debris on the 1957 aerials, the only bunker which seems to exactly fit the largest pieces of concrete is the R680..; also on this aerial the flanking wall can be seen laying loose from the bunkerdebris... which could indicate the flanking wall was not a solid part of the bunker
What do you think?? I'm going for a R680 unless you can proof otherwise.
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
When ready, I will upload some detailed views of the stronghold, but in the meanwhile here is a general view of the stronghold based on 1944 aerials. Most bunkers which lay in ruins on the beach (as seen on the IGN 1957 aerial) are not that far away from their original position; the dunes were swepped away from underneath the bunkers instead of the bunkers sliding of the dune as often thought.
As can see this stronghold was spread over a quite large area.
As can see this stronghold was spread over a quite large area.
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Thanks Dirk
I know these aerials... as I used some of them to do this study
thank you anyway
Jean
I know these aerials... as I used some of them to do this study
thank you anyway
Jean
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
and there are many more to follow
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
an entrace to one of the many underground tunnels/trenches in and around the stronghold.
Although everything was demolished, I would seem quite a work to dig up al these underground trenches...
perhaps these were left untouched but were dug under??
The R143 serving as leitstand for the Stp 049 (Cabour / Bochum)
I got these photo's from Mister Vancoille, who also lives in De Panne. He also gave me the orignals which I can use and even publish under the mentioning of his name as copyrightholder.
more will follow
Although everything was demolished, I would seem quite a work to dig up al these underground trenches...
perhaps these were left untouched but were dug under??
The R143 serving as leitstand for the Stp 049 (Cabour / Bochum)
I got these photo's from Mister Vancoille, who also lives in De Panne. He also gave me the orignals which I can use and even publish under the mentioning of his name as copyrightholder.
more will follow
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Thank you for sharing these nice color pictures of Stp Schlieffen.
Pierrot
Pierrot
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Nice concentration of bunkers; in the background left a toiletbunker, in the foreground a Vf2a and on the right the backside of het 612 which stood here... what couldn't be seen on aerials is the possible 5cm KwKstand in front of the Vf2a
a better view of this possible 5cm KwKstand
a closer look at the backside of the 612
a better view of this possible 5cm KwKstand
a closer look at the backside of the 612
- dirk Peeters
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Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Thanks Marvelous stuff
Dirk
Dirk
Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Earlier this week I've posted some photo's from a German soldiers photo album who was stationed at Stp Panther Coxyde
( viewtopic.php?f=70&t=256239 ). Amongst those photos many photos, mostly free-time photos, taken in the neighboring towns and villages of Coxyde.
Amongst which this very unique and superbe photo of the Stp Schlieffen in De Panne on which we can see the base of the Wassermann-antenna. There is also an entrance to an underground construction which wasn't found earlier on any aerial-overlays which have been done on this stronghold, including mine.
The soldiers are clearly delivering (or uploading) something to the Stp Schlieffen which could relate to the strange and hard to read word in the photocaption. I think it must read something like 'Zwiebaklieren' but this word doesn't exist and I can't find any existing German word which resemble to this word.
The photo clearly shows the soldiers were standing on a dead-end side road with the main road in the background.
so when looking at an IGN 1957 aerial it seems most likely the photo was taken from this location.
Jean
( viewtopic.php?f=70&t=256239 ). Amongst those photos many photos, mostly free-time photos, taken in the neighboring towns and villages of Coxyde.
Amongst which this very unique and superbe photo of the Stp Schlieffen in De Panne on which we can see the base of the Wassermann-antenna. There is also an entrance to an underground construction which wasn't found earlier on any aerial-overlays which have been done on this stronghold, including mine.
The soldiers are clearly delivering (or uploading) something to the Stp Schlieffen which could relate to the strange and hard to read word in the photocaption. I think it must read something like 'Zwiebaklieren' but this word doesn't exist and I can't find any existing German word which resemble to this word.
The photo clearly shows the soldiers were standing on a dead-end side road with the main road in the background.
so when looking at an IGN 1957 aerial it seems most likely the photo was taken from this location.
Jean
- der bunkermann
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Re: Stp von Schlieffen AOK 15 KVA A3
Nice picture!
The most logical would be "zwieba(c)k liefern", "biscuit /rusk delivery.".
But the bags look more like it contains potato's?
Maybe Zwiebak is also the name for more german food?
The most logical would be "zwieba(c)k liefern", "biscuit /rusk delivery.".
But the bags look more like it contains potato's?
Maybe Zwiebak is also the name for more german food?