5 cm KwK used in fortifications
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
ah! which ones are VF 9 Dirk?
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... s&start=45
look t all this Topic
there you can see german plan with "Nach zeichnung nr 88
and you know the list ... only drawning nr 87 must be replaced by nr 137 (is been done in the 600 series also by replacing a nr or a drawning
Dirk
look t all this Topic
there you can see german plan with "Nach zeichnung nr 88
and you know the list ... only drawning nr 87 must be replaced by nr 137 (is been done in the 600 series also by replacing a nr or a drawning
Dirk
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
Thanks Dirk
Still i find this strange, there are hundreds, even many many more of those emplacements built in the entire A'wall, but there is not even one found on a document with the right number?
Perhaps this is like the Germans used in the first world war:
During my work, i'm lucky to open some of the holland stellung bunkers near Antwerp in benefit for the bats (for those who do not know, i work in the forests), and last summer many of the sealed bunkers in kapellen where opened, and i hoped to finaly found some evidence about the bunkernumbers which are NEVER been found... There are some numbers which are given by the belgian army like "type VI" and "type VII". Only in two bunkers i found German shortcut-texts, and those texts where also used in the list of the belgian army from the interbellum. one bunker shows the text "Inf. B" (we all know what that could be! Infanterie Beobachter), the other one shows the text "Gesch.St. 7.5cm" (Geschützstand 7.5cm)...
What i trying to tell is that some bunkertypes did not received a building number, but only a name.
About the 5cm emplacements, we see them sometimes on german maps, and they always are named: "5cm KwK" or something simular.
What do you think? is it possible that some bunkers of the second world war also received only shortcuts/names instead of numbers?
Still i find this strange, there are hundreds, even many many more of those emplacements built in the entire A'wall, but there is not even one found on a document with the right number?
Perhaps this is like the Germans used in the first world war:
During my work, i'm lucky to open some of the holland stellung bunkers near Antwerp in benefit for the bats (for those who do not know, i work in the forests), and last summer many of the sealed bunkers in kapellen where opened, and i hoped to finaly found some evidence about the bunkernumbers which are NEVER been found... There are some numbers which are given by the belgian army like "type VI" and "type VII". Only in two bunkers i found German shortcut-texts, and those texts where also used in the list of the belgian army from the interbellum. one bunker shows the text "Inf. B" (we all know what that could be! Infanterie Beobachter), the other one shows the text "Gesch.St. 7.5cm" (Geschützstand 7.5cm)...
What i trying to tell is that some bunkertypes did not received a building number, but only a name.
About the 5cm emplacements, we see them sometimes on german maps, and they always are named: "5cm KwK" or something simular.
What do you think? is it possible that some bunkers of the second world war also received only shortcuts/names instead of numbers?
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
The VF9 which exists can be, is not forcing Ringstand for 5 cms KwK, for the moment there is no plan nor of proof, thus it's useless to invent
regards
AC
regards
AC
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
as you say .... It s a free world and everyone may have is opinion ....
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
and here is the whole document .... so where do we invent anything mr Chazette ?
you still say its not a ringstand for 5 cm ?
and it s a german document as we can see but maybe as you said before this plan is an error
it s a free world so i respect your opinion
please respect ours
Dirk
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
hi,
dirk and do not forget that the document in our possession since + 18 months.
regards
dirk and do not forget that the document in our possession since + 18 months.
regards
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
As the famous one with the 1694 ?moonraker wrote:hi,
dirk and do not forget that the document in our possession since + 18 months.
regards

Please show a (german) document with "VF9" mentionned and not a zeichnung number, it would be the very first step for a serene debate I think.
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
Zeichnung numbers are as good as anything else ....
but please i dont continue
or it becomes the same as with Batterie in Trouville with Bunker 14 this morning and you attack us
so let us do our work , you do yours
if you believe in your fundament nr that is your choice
we use VF 9 that is our choice
but please i dont continue
or it becomes the same as with Batterie in Trouville with Bunker 14 this morning and you attack us
so let us do our work , you do yours
if you believe in your fundament nr that is your choice
we use VF 9 that is our choice
Last edited by dirk Peeters on 28 Mar 2014 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
hi
this method in the future we will see who is on the good path,we have all the time even if it takes 20 years.
this method in the future we will see who is on the good path,we have all the time even if it takes 20 years.

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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
i do not see in this document the name VF9 Thus it is not one VF9 perhaps VF ?
on the VF8 the number is VF8
And the number of drawing is much upper
But it is necessary to say that a number of drawing does not give a number of VF (concrete example with the 58c which possesses at least 20 numbers of drawings between 100 and 600
AC
on the VF8 the number is VF8
And the number of drawing is much upper
But it is necessary to say that a number of drawing does not give a number of VF (concrete example with the 58c which possesses at least 20 numbers of drawings between 100 and 600
AC
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
Hello Dirk
Very nice drawing the "Zeichnung 88" could be the V.F. 9 because of your deduction ,
but I am not sure . Would be great if we found some more sources on the "Geschütz-
fundamente" of the 5 cm KwK .
Regards Jos
Very nice drawing the "Zeichnung 88" could be the V.F. 9 because of your deduction ,
but I am not sure . Would be great if we found some more sources on the "Geschütz-
fundamente" of the 5 cm KwK .
Regards Jos
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
Thanks Jos
i ll know it is only a deduction , as is with the 1694 but that nr is already classified as a fundament and we can clearly forget that for identification
for Alain
If you have one zeichnung number for a 58c that would be a scoop
I have more than twenty original german plans from the 58 (bauplans , betteneinbau , recognition plans ....)but on neither one is a Zeichnung nr
do not think please a Zeichnung nr is a Ic or Ib nr that is completely different
a zeichnung nr is always clearly written on the plan
for instance an 120 has as Zeichnung nr 217 so you can see clearly the difference between Ic nr and so on and the zeichnung nrs
i ll know it is only a deduction , as is with the 1694 but that nr is already classified as a fundament and we can clearly forget that for identification
for Alain
If you have one zeichnung number for a 58c that would be a scoop
I have more than twenty original german plans from the 58 (bauplans , betteneinbau , recognition plans ....)but on neither one is a Zeichnung nr
do not think please a Zeichnung nr is a Ic or Ib nr that is completely different
a zeichnung nr is always clearly written on the plan
for instance an 120 has as Zeichnung nr 217 so you can see clearly the difference between Ic nr and so on and the zeichnung nrs
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
There are some types in the zeichnung nr series that has two numbers but this means that the old design is changed into a new plan
a few has because of this two zeichnung nrs as is with the 120 here
this original plan (nr 217) is later changed to the "new" zichnung nr 269 ....
and that is what happened to the VF 8 , the old plan was given a new zeichnung nr because the plan has changed and from Zeichnung nr 87 (original VF8 ) it is changed to zeichnung nr 137 ... nothing special about that and very logic
new plan ... change the old plan by a new one with a new classification nr
100 series bunkers start from nr 212 (for a 134) and ends on nr 846 for the type 694
two 600 series (662 and 668 i didn t find the zeichnung nr)
Most VF have their zeichnung nr but the one of the 58c is also missing
a few has because of this two zeichnung nrs as is with the 120 here
this original plan (nr 217) is later changed to the "new" zichnung nr 269 ....
and that is what happened to the VF 8 , the old plan was given a new zeichnung nr because the plan has changed and from Zeichnung nr 87 (original VF8 ) it is changed to zeichnung nr 137 ... nothing special about that and very logic
new plan ... change the old plan by a new one with a new classification nr
100 series bunkers start from nr 212 (for a 134) and ends on nr 846 for the type 694
two 600 series (662 and 668 i didn t find the zeichnung nr)
Most VF have their zeichnung nr but the one of the 58c is also missing
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Re: INFO: 5 cm KwK used in fortifications
An emplacement with one entrance or two entrances, or with 2/3/4 nishes, are all VF9? or are there some differences?
Like a VF 8, there are also variations with nishes and entrances left/right is supose...
Like a VF 8, there are also variations with nishes and entrances left/right is supose...