5 cm KwK used in fortifications

[Bunkerfreak]

ah! which ones are VF 9 Dirk?

[dirk Peeters]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... s&start=45
look t all this Topic
there you can see german plan with "Nach zeichnung nr 88
and you know the list ...

00.jpg

only drawning nr 87 must be replaced by nr 137 (is been done in the 600 series also by replacing a nr or a drawning
Dirk

[Bunkerfreak]

Thanks Dirk

Still i find this strange, there are hundreds, even many many more of those emplacements built in the entire A'wall, but there is not even one found on a document with the right number?

Perhaps this is like the Germans used in the first world war:

During my work, i'm lucky to open some of the holland stellung bunkers near Antwerp in benefit for the bats (for those who do not know, i work in the forests), and last summer many of the sealed bunkers in kapellen where opened, and i hoped to finaly found some evidence about the bunkernumbers which are NEVER been found... There are some numbers which are given by the belgian army like "type VI" and "type VII". Only in two bunkers i found German shortcut-texts, and those texts where also used in the list of the belgian army from the interbellum. one bunker shows the text "Inf. B" (we all know what that could be! Infanterie Beobachter), the other one shows the text "Gesch.St. 7.5cm" (Geschützstand 7.5cm)...

What i trying to tell is that some bunkertypes did not received a building number, but only a name.
About the 5cm emplacements, we see them sometimes on german maps, and they always are named: "5cm KwK" or something simular.

What do you think? is it possible that some bunkers of the second world war also received only shortcuts/names instead of numbers?

[Chazette]

The VF9 which exists can be, is not forcing Ringstand for 5 cms KwK, for the moment there is no plan nor of proof, thus it's useless to invent
regards
AC

[dirk Peeters]

as you say .... It s a free world and everyone may have is opinion ....

[dirk Peeters]

88 klein detail tekst .jpg

we see clearly nach zeichnung 88 and the name is geschutzfundament fur 5 cm KWK
and here is the whole document ....

88 klein.jpg

so where do we invent anything mr Chazette ?
you still say its not a ringstand for 5 cm ?
and it s a german document as we can see but maybe as you said before this plan is an error
it s a free world so i respect your opinion
please respect ours
Dirk

[moonraker]

hi,
dirk and do not forget that the document in our possession since + 18 months.
regards

[Eax-E]

hi,
dirk and do not forget that the document in our possession since + 18 months.
regards

As the famous one with the 1694 ?

Please show a (german) document with "VF9" mentionned and not a zeichnung number, it would be the very first step for a serene debate I think.

[dirk Peeters]

Zeichnung numbers are as good as anything else ....
but please i dont continue
or it becomes the same as with Batterie in Trouville with Bunker 14 this morning and you attack us
so let us do our work , you do yours
if you believe in your fundament nr that is your choice
we use VF 9 that is our choice

[moonraker]

hi

this method in the future we will see who is on the good path,we have all the time even if it takes 20 years.

[Chazette]

i do not see in this document the name VF9 Thus it is not one VF9 perhaps VF ?
on the VF8 the number is VF8
And the number of drawing is much upper
But it is necessary to say that a number of drawing does not give a number of VF (concrete example with the 58c which possesses at least 20 numbers of drawings between 100 and 600
AC

[jopaerya]

Hello Dirk

Very nice drawing the "Zeichnung 88" could be the V.F. 9 because of your deduction ,
but I am not sure . Would be great if we found some more sources on the "Geschütz-
fundamente" of the 5 cm KwK .

Regards Jos

[dirk Peeters]

Thanks Jos
i ll know it is only a deduction , as is with the 1694 but that nr is already classified as a fundament and we can clearly forget that for identification
for Alain
If you have one zeichnung number for a 58c that would be a scoop
I have more than twenty original german plans from the 58 (bauplans , betteneinbau , recognition plans ....)but on neither one is a Zeichnung nr
do not think please a Zeichnung nr is a Ic or Ib nr that is completely different
a zeichnung nr is always clearly written on the plan
for instance an 120 has as Zeichnung nr 217

0 120.jpg

00 120 1.jpg

so you can see clearly the difference between Ic nr and so on and the zeichnung nrs

[dirk Peeters]

There are some types in the zeichnung nr series that has two numbers but this means that the old design is changed into a new plan
a few has because of this two zeichnung nrs as is with the 120 here
this original plan (nr 217) is later changed to the "new" zichnung nr 269 ....
and that is what happened to the VF 8 , the old plan was given a new zeichnung nr because the plan has changed and from Zeichnung nr 87 (original VF8 ) it is changed to zeichnung nr 137 ... nothing special about that and very logic
new plan ... change the old plan by a new one with a new classification nr
100 series bunkers start from nr 212 (for a 134) and ends on nr 846 for the type 694
two 600 series (662 and 668 i didn t find the zeichnung nr)

Most VF have their zeichnung nr but the one of the 58c is also missing

[Bunkerfreak]

An emplacement with one entrance or two entrances, or with 2/3/4 nishes, are all VF9? or are there some differences?

Like a VF 8, there are also variations with nishes and entrances left/right is supose...