3,7cm PaK and his variants

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vrog
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3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 26 Feb 2018 08:14

Hallo,
I'm starting to work on a list of all the production variants (and licences) of this cannon. But it's a well-known cannon, so I thought - has not anyone done it before? I want not to do something that's already done. So if you have some information abourt list of variants, please post it below. We can also improve the existing one.

There will be a growing list of variants with pictures. now just a quick start:

0) 3,7cm TaK prototypes and midwar era
1) first 3,7 PaK versions
2) Hungarian licences
-- versions with spoked wheel
-- versions with "undercarriages split legs" or "Split trail" - dont know which english word
see there: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... megdan.jpg - i dont think that is a 4,2 cm PaK 41 but some "horse drown version from some axis licence?"

-- 40 mm 40M – "This was a Hungarian design. It was effectively a Pak 36 but rebarrelled to fit a Škoda 40 mm A17, the standard Hungarian light anti-tank gun. This could fire the same ammunition as the Bofors 40 mm anti-aircraft gun, and also had a version of Stielgranate ammunition made for it." - Wikipedia

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Grzesio
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by Grzesio » 26 Feb 2018 12:33

Wasn't the gun designated 3,7 cm Pak? ;)

And what about the Soviet 37 mm antitank gun mod. 30 (1-K) and its derivatives?

Another question that comes to my mind is - was the 3,7 cm Pak (officially?) designated as the 3,7 cm Pjk at some point?

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nuyt
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by nuyt » 26 Feb 2018 16:55

There is a gentleman in the US who has published several volumes of "A Gun for all nations", dealing with the many types and brands of 37mm guns. You can reach him here: [email protected]

vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 26 Feb 2018 19:09

Grzesio wrote:Wasn't the gun designated 3,7 cm Pak? ;)

And what about the Soviet 37 mm antitank gun mod. 30 (1-K) and its derivatives?

Another question that comes to my mind is - was the 3,7 cm Pak (officially?) designated as the 3,7 cm Pjk at some point?
Hallo,
yes, a bigg letter "K" is my bad habit about writting abbreviation.
Sure, Soviet version must go to the list too
And finaly, i think yes, Pjk... I thikn about late time of Reichswehr? But im wrong maybe.
nuyt wrote:There is a gentleman in the US who has published several volumes of "A Gun for all nations", dealing with the many types and brands of 37mm guns. You can reach him here: [email protected]
Thanks you for a contact, ill try to write him.

vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 26 Feb 2018 19:11

vrog wrote:Hallo,
I'm starting to work on a list of all the production variants (and licences) of this cannon. But it's a well-known cannon, so I thought - has not anyone done it before? I want not to do something that's already done. So if you have some information abourt list of variants, please post it below. We can also improve the existing one.

There will be a growing list of variants with pictures. now just a quick start:

0) 3,7cm TaK prototypes and midwar era
1) first 3,7 PaK versions
2) Hungarian licences
-- versions with spoked wheel
-- versions with "undercarriages split legs" or "Split trail" - dont know which english word
see there: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... megdan.jpg - i dont think that is a 4,2 cm PaK 41 but some "horse drown version from some axis licence?"
3) Soviet Licences
-- 1-K
-- 19-K
-- 53-K
-- 42-K

-- 40 mm 40M – "This was a Hungarian design. It was effectively a Pak 36 but rebarrelled to fit a Škoda 40 mm A17, the standard Hungarian light anti-tank gun. This could fire the same ammunition as the Bofors 40 mm anti-aircraft gun, and also had a version of Stielgranate ammunition made for it." - Wikipedia

vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 05 Mar 2018 08:09

Hello,
I continue his research
for the beginning, I gathered photos of about 20 pieces of "3,7cm Pak." And I managed to recognize two basic variants according to these criteria

So there is the upgreaded list of variants of gun:

0) 3,7 cm Tak (Tank-Abwehr-Kanone)
– Geheime Kommandosache 6163/32 dated 20.11.1932
– a gun without a suspension chassis
– spoked wheels


1) 3,7 cm Pak:
– a gun with a suspension chassis
– presed wheels with tires
Im able to recognize two versions according to:
1st version: two-pieces barrel with conical connection to breech and round holder of sights. I have photos with year mark „1937“ and second piece with diferent years „1935“ on breech and 1937 on carriage“
2nd version: one-piece barrel with gradual stair connection to breech and straight holder of sights. I have photos of 1 piece with mark of year „1940,“ now it is in Finland museum

After that detection of years' marks and versions we can say that 1st version is „early“ and 2nd version is late. Maybe it sits on the names below according to Allgemeine Heeresmitteilung:
1a) 3,7 cm Pak (Panzer-Abwehr-Kanone)
– Allgemeine Heeresmitteilung dated 07.07.1936
1b) 3,7 cm Pak (Panzer-Jäger-Kanone)
– Allgemeine Heeresmitteilung dated 24.04.1941


2) Hungarian licences
2a) versions with spoked wheels and without a suspension chassis
2b) versions with spoked wheels and without a suspension chassis and with "undercarriages split legs" or "Split trail" - dont know which english word
see there: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... megdan.jpg
- i dont think that is a 4,2 cm PaK 41 but some "horse drown version from some axis licence?"
2c) 40 mm 40M
– versions with spoked wheels and without a suspension chassis
– rebarrelled to fit a Škoda 40 mm A17, the standard Hungarian light anti-tank gun.
– could fire the same ammunition as the Bofors 40 mm anti-aircraft gun, and Stielgranate

3) Estonian Licences
- rebarrelled version od German Pak with longer barrel L50 (normaly was L45)

4) Soviet licences and own 45mm guns
4a) 3,7cm ATG M1930 1-K – 37mm gun, horizontal breech, spoked wheels and no suspension chassis so it is realy simplified wersion of TaK
4b) 4,5cm ATG M1932 19-K – holders of handles are separated, without a suspension chassis
4c) 4,5cm ATG M1937 53-K – holders of handles are conected together, new firing button, new semi-automatic breech, new sights, with a suspension chassis
4d) 4,5cm ATG M1942 42-K

romsitsa
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by romsitsa » 11 Mar 2018 22:05

Hello vrog,

there was no Hungarian license. We used the TAK (spoked wooden wheels) and Pak 36.
Some Pak 36 received Hungarian inflateable spoked wheels, but the guns were German.
The only Hungarian built light AT gun was the 1940M 40 mm AT gun, slightly resembling the Pak 36. this can be seen at Kalemegdan, in the back of the photo you posted. The 40M only had a suspension chassis.

Adam

vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 12 Mar 2018 05:30

Thank you so much romsitsa about informations.

But 1940M 40 mm AT gun at Kalemegdan had no supression. Is this one-off business or some production version?

Did you have a more informations? Or som resources in PDF?

romsitsa
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by romsitsa » 12 Mar 2018 09:02

Hello vrog,

checked my books, we only produced ammunition for the 37 mm AT guns. The reason why the 40M was developed was that Germany refused to deliver further 37 mm guns, so I'm sure we didn't produce any 37 mm AT gun before and during the war.
The gun in your pic (or at least its carriage) is imho a TAK, I don't know why it's labeled 40M.

Update:
Or it's a gun cobbled together from parts.
Checked the manual of the 40M again and it had two types of suspensions (interchangeable), a rigid axle for horse drawn and torsion bar suspension for machine drawn.
The rigid axle design looks quite similar to the undercarriage of the Kalamegdan example, but I don't have any clear photos to compare the undercarriage of the TAK and 40M.

Adam

vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 12 Mar 2018 09:34

Thanks you wery much. Can you post me a manual of 40M in PDF or something else?

Cobbled some parts IMHO is right idea - look at firing buttons. TAK did not have that i think.

romsitsa
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by romsitsa » 12 Mar 2018 10:04

Hello vrog,

I can't post the manual as it's copyright protected, but I'll see what can be done.
Another vague idea of mine is that the Kalamegdan gun is a Pak 36 with a Hungarian rigid axel. But without clear pictures of the Pak 36 and TAK chassis I'm only guessing.

Adam

romsitsa
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by romsitsa » 12 Mar 2018 12:06

Hello vrog,

these photos were posted online, so I can share them. Are those horse drawn Pak 36 or TAK? What is actually the difference between a TAK and PAk 36?

German
yg2b.jpg
Hungarian
imageerdekes.jpg
German
37cmTAK28_zps4e5489e1.jpg
Adam
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vrog
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by vrog » 12 Mar 2018 14:05

I was thinking that a diference is a no supression + spoked wheels and no firing buttons. But on your photos firing buttons are.
My mind will bllow up :D

Sturm78
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by Sturm78 » 12 Mar 2018 23:21

Hi all,

The gun of the last image posted by romsitsa seems to have a longer barrel tha standar 3.7cm Tak or Pak guns.... :?

Sturm78

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nuyt
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Re: 3,7cm PaK and his variants

Post by nuyt » 13 Mar 2018 10:37

last one could be the Turkish model?

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