S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Thanks Jürgen
Your right I put the 7.5cm guns in the other Topic , are you 100% sure all the outer walls
were in A = 3.50 . Because bunkers in heavy coast batterie's build in the same period were
build in B and should be later added with a extra layer of concrete of 1.50 cm . Just like
B. Le Havre , B. Hamburg and B. Marcouf ??
Regards Jos
Your right I put the 7.5cm guns in the other Topic , are you 100% sure all the outer walls
were in A = 3.50 . Because bunkers in heavy coast batterie's build in the same period were
build in B and should be later added with a extra layer of concrete of 1.50 cm . Just like
B. Le Havre , B. Hamburg and B. Marcouf ??
Regards Jos
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Hello Wim
There was no need for a great hole in machine room , a few pipes would be enough I think .
Regards Jos
There was no need for a great hole in machine room , a few pipes would be enough I think .
Regards Jos
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
I did read your topic.
Toilets:
is there evidence of a septic tank or other sewer connection (outside) ?
Tunnel/cable ducts:
The power cable connection to the turret is clear to me as far as we can see on pictures. They go down to the "under water" section.
After that you "suggest" a tunnel going to the center of the gun pit. That is possible.
But a more "simple" cable duct in the floor would be possible too. I think that easy access was no. 1.
Engine room (9) floorgulleys are not mentioned in your report.
Shaft (14) are there any coal (black remains) visible on the walls ?
Is there a chimney (remains) above ground ? which leads to room 20 ?
Also boilers especcially coal fired would need a lot of air. What do you think of that ? How was fresh air distributed and used air expelled ?
===============
The amo tracks (shell handling) of Hansholm and Austratt are well known since they are still there.
Also drawn in 3D (Hanstholm and VARA)
The power generation (generator) and control set up in room (9) would be more or less the same as for apparatus as Hanstholm and Austratt.
Therefore You need a good picture of the walls and the gulleys in the floor.
Toilets:
is there evidence of a septic tank or other sewer connection (outside) ?
Tunnel/cable ducts:
The power cable connection to the turret is clear to me as far as we can see on pictures. They go down to the "under water" section.
After that you "suggest" a tunnel going to the center of the gun pit. That is possible.
But a more "simple" cable duct in the floor would be possible too. I think that easy access was no. 1.
Engine room (9) floorgulleys are not mentioned in your report.
Shaft (14) are there any coal (black remains) visible on the walls ?
Is there a chimney (remains) above ground ? which leads to room 20 ?
Also boilers especcially coal fired would need a lot of air. What do you think of that ? How was fresh air distributed and used air expelled ?
===============
The amo tracks (shell handling) of Hansholm and Austratt are well known since they are still there.
Also drawn in 3D (Hanstholm and VARA)
The power generation (generator) and control set up in room (9) would be more or less the same as for apparatus as Hanstholm and Austratt.
Therefore You need a good picture of the walls and the gulleys in the floor.
Thanks,
Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html
Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
I know, I know, but when things do not exactly fit, I am stuck with questions.
Questions that often are not or can not be answered.
(No offence !!)
Thanks,
Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html
Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Yes, I am !jopaerya wrote: ↑07 Aug 2018 15:49Thanks Jürgen
Your right I put the 7.5cm guns in the other Topic , are you 100% sure all the outer walls
were in A = 3.50 . Because bunkers in heavy coast batterie's build in the same period were
build in B and should be later added with a extra layer of concrete of 1.50 cm . Just like
B. Le Havre , B. Hamburg and B. Marcouf ??
Regards Jos
1. Yourself gave us indirectly the first proof, which I found "particularily interesting" and helped me a lot
2. I show in my report 2 images from the right entrance wall with interesting mesurement points (look to the plan). Looking along (I did it in june once more) the outer wall , even under sand, it seems to be straight (sandy slope) from the entrance to the end. That´s what I have drawn on the plan. The wall is conical from 1,50 m at the entrance to about 3,50m at the end.
3. We mesured inside the tubes (room 7) and the horizontal length up to the end is 300 cm. So the wall MUST be thicker
look here from the horizontal end of the tube in vertical direction to the chimney on the roof. Unfortunately this time I had no laser.

Hopefully you understand the importance of my mesurements (I hate it) for completely understanding of the whole functionality.
I am no expert, but I think that these naval turrets were more effectif and considered as more precious than your cited exemples. And these naval turrets don´t function without their "housing", it´s not only protection.
Last edited by juestr on 08 Aug 2018 08:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Oke Jürgen
Yes I saw your mesurement points on your drawing but most are entrance side and the machine room,
I want to know shure that the other walls were also 3.50 cm . Sounds logic the 3.50 for the gun turret.
On the S 473/S 483 there was at least one iron pipe head on top of the bunker, who knows were that
pipe is gooing inside the bunker ??
Regards Jos
Yes I saw your mesurement points on your drawing but most are entrance side and the machine room,
I want to know shure that the other walls were also 3.50 cm . Sounds logic the 3.50 for the gun turret.
On the S 473/S 483 there was at least one iron pipe head on top of the bunker, who knows were that
pipe is gooing inside the bunker ??
Regards Jos
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
From that position left and behind the turret a vertical duct would go directly to the wall on the left side oft the ventilation room (15) and the heating room (20)
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
There is nothing to be seen except the two openings for the toilets in the floor.
In room 5 at both ends are 2 pits in the floor with access to obviously sewer.
How sewerage is treated in similar or comparable artillery bunker like Hanstholm, Austratt ??
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
the following extract of a plan of an unknown author is a very good indication for you. Exact mesurements til now were of minor interest for me.

additionally this photo from Dirk:
download/file.php?id=318567&mode=view
No traces at all.Shaft (14) are there any coal (black remains) visible on the walls ?
But the lower part in the basement is more than 100 cm under water, the shaft and other walls have been painted white
In my mind the SHELL handling in Karola is very different from the handling in Austratt because of weight and the number, size and position of the shell stores. I suppose for Karola (like Seydlitz) a similar system as the CARTRIDGE handling in Lindemann, Hanstholm (S498) etc.The amo tracks (shell handling) of Hansholm and Austratt are well known since they are still there.
Also drawn in 3D (Hanstholm and VARA)
This might be well known, but not for me. Under hundreds of (tourist)pictures from Hanstholm, Vara I found only a few not very good and detailed ones and no design drawings.
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
yes and no !
My approach is different from model-making. I want to know and understand all about
1. the German naval turrets SK/C34, 20,3cm - 38cm
2. the bunker where this 20,3cm turret has been built in
3. all peripheral technical equipment necessary for its functionality
as for 1: I have a lot of docs dealing with these turrets, especially the 20,3cm one
as for 2: see my report
as for 3: here is a big lack of knowledge for me, especially for this bunker equipment
So I hope to find technical information with your contributions and discussions about the installed electro-mechanical equipment in this S473/S483.
(ventilation, cooling, heating, energy, ammo handling ......)
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Hi,
A very very big thanks Jürgen for this job, and of course for Catherine and Jazote.
A very very big thanks Jürgen for this job, and of course for Catherine and Jazote.
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Merci Patrick,patrick fleuridas wrote: ↑12 Aug 2018 09:36Hi,
A very very big thanks Jürgen for this job, and of course for Catherine and Jazote.
je pensais quand-mème avoir plus de discussions fructueuses pour tout le monde ici sur axis (par rapport au superforum), mais rien.
Enfin peut-etre c´est due avant tout à l´époque des grandes vacances. On verra!
Gruß
Jürgen
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
Big thanks Jürgen for your thorough report! This is superclass bunker archeology. 
If my pictures from Örlandet or Vara are of any help? I have more. http://bunkersite.com/locations/norway/ ... ndet-1.php

If my pictures from Örlandet or Vara are of any help? I have more. http://bunkersite.com/locations/norway/ ... ndet-1.php
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)
I already found and studied your phantastic pictures from Austratt (Vara not yet).AvB wrote: ↑16 Aug 2018 17:29Big thanks Jürgen for your thorough report! This is superclass bunker archeology.
If my pictures from Örlandet or Vara are of any help? I have more. http://bunkersite.com/locations/norway/ ... ndet-1.php
When talking about ventilation room 15 of Dora I cited your "similar" picture from Austratt

the machinery at the bottom is of particular interest for me. It looks like a compressor (refrigerator) or pump. As this room was for air-conditioning of the ammo rooms I believe more to a refrigerator. Do you have more infos about this type of machine and/or more detailed pictures ?