S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

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AvB
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by AvB » 17 Aug 2018 08:55

I have no clue what it is. But I believe more and more we have to check the inventory of ships rather than navy bunkers because it all seems to be copied from ship to land.

Here are more detailed pictures. I can send you the highres images if you like.
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Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 17 Aug 2018 21:15

AvB wrote:
17 Aug 2018 08:55
I have no clue what it is. But I believe more and more we have to check the inventory of ships rather than navy bunkers because it all seems to be copied from ship to land.

Here are more detailed pictures. I can send you the highres images if you like.
This is the air Compressor for providing high pressure air for the recuperators and the two air bottles for anti-shock prevention in the hydraulic turret system. When the turret was shipborne there was a compressor for these tasks on the intermediate plattform beneath the engineering platform. The one on the picture was part of the land system. A special flex air hose was fitted when the turret systems were to be replenished.

JEF

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 18 Aug 2018 08:44

Also these turrets at Ars the elevation and the ammunition supply was hydraulic and
as back-up the elevation and ammunition supply could be operated electric .


Here a other compressor from B.Trondenes ( Seacoast defences )
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juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 21 Aug 2018 14:39

Janef wrote:
17 Aug 2018 21:15
...............
This is the air Compressor for providing high pressure air for the recuperators and the two air bottles for anti-shock prevention in the hydraulic turret system. When the turret was shipborne there was a compressor for these tasks on the intermediate plattform beneath the engineering platform. The one on the picture was part of the land system. A special flex air hose was fitted when the turret systems were to be replenished.

JEF

On this plan of an 28cm turret in land installation (extract J.B.Wahl, Atlantikwall en Norvège) we see what JEF told us. The “Zwischenplattform” is empty.
JanEF, do you know for what reason ?

Image


A similar arrangement is shown on the following plan of an 20,3 cm shipborne turret.

Image

We see the air-compressor installed on the intermediate plattform. In the 1945 french and british reports we read about some minor differences between land- and shipborne installation at Ars (Karola), but nothing about changes or withdrawal of the air compressor.

The ventilation room 15 which resembles to the discussed room at Austratt does not really show traces of any machinery, no socle, but two open electric cables on the wall and an open tube exit of the heat exchanger (water – air). For this tube does not exist any (free) opening in the wall.
And where has been a fan?

As longer as I think about I do not believe to an air-compressor being installed here in room 15

Image

Image

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 21 Aug 2018 17:13

juestr wrote:
21 Aug 2018 14:39
Janef wrote:
17 Aug 2018 21:15
...............
This is the air Compressor for providing high pressure air for the recuperators and the two air bottles for anti-shock prevention in the hydraulic turret system. When the turret was shipborne there was a compressor for these tasks on the intermediate plattform beneath the engineering platform. The one on the picture was part of the land system. A special flex air hose was fitted when the turret systems were to be replenished.

JEF

On this plan of an 28cm turret in land installation (extract J.B.Wahl, Atlantikwall en Norvège) we see what JEF told us. The “Zwischenplattform” is empty.
JanEF, do you know for what reason ?
-------

Unfortunately I do not have any data on the "missing" compressor on the Zwischenplattform. What I know is that the 28 cm turret needed 90 atü for each of the three gun barrel recuperators, as well as filling up the two 356 litre air bottles for the hydraulic accummulator system to provide a service pressure in the accumulators at 68 atü. The German manuals only state that this pressured air came from the fixed ship Torpedopressluft-system.
The compressor on the picture is rated at 200 atü which is the level the Torpedopressluft-system operated at. (The small starter air compressor shown in another picture delivers 30 atü, the pressure neded for starting the diesels.)
The missing compressor was maybe a reserve system in case of the Torpedopressluft-system not working.

As the 20,3 cm turrets are close technical relatives to the 28 cm C/28 turrets, I think there must have been a similar Torpedopressluft-system at the land based 20,3 cm batteries. At Austrått this compressor is locaded in a room in the staircase system at the same height as the Maschinenplattform, where the manometers and connection fittings were located.

JEF

jazote
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jazote » 22 Aug 2018 18:16

jopaerya wrote:
18 Aug 2018 08:44
As we are talking about Karola, here is a picture post war (Anton for Jürgen):
Anton_bis.jpg
Regards
JLM
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Bertill622
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Bertill622 » 22 Aug 2018 19:55

Thanks for sharing this subject to all of you!

Best regards,
Bertill.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 23 Aug 2018 09:51

Janef wrote:
21 Aug 2018 17:13

Unfortunately I do not have any data on the "missing" compressor on the Zwischenplattform. What I know is that the 28 cm turret needed 90 atü for each of the three gun barrel recuperators, as well as filling up the two 356 litre air bottles for the hydraulic accummulator system to provide a service pressure in the accumulators at 68 atü. The German manuals only state that this pressured air came from the fixed ship Torpedopressluft-system.
The compressor on the picture is rated at 200 atü which is the level the Torpedopressluft-system operated at. (The small starter air compressor shown in another picture delivers 30 atü, the pressure neded for starting the diesels.)
The missing compressor was maybe a reserve system in case of the Torpedopressluft-system not working.
looking today to the original 28 cm and 38 cm seaborne turret plans I could not recognize/find a compressor as seen for the 20,3 cm turret on the intermediate plattform. May be it never did exist for auxiliary purpose.

As the 20,3 cm turrets are close technical relatives to the 28 cm C/28 turrets, I think there must have been a similar Torpedopressluft-system at the land based 20,3 cm batteries. At Austrått this compressor is locaded in a room in the staircase system at the same height as the Maschinenplattform, where the manometers and connection fittings were located.

JEF
At Dora at the same height as the Maschinenplattform there is nothing else but the 3,50 m concrete roof of the bunker. However in this respect we find two curious straight gaps in the cylindrical wall at the height of the intermediate platform for unknown reason till now.

Image

As an electric cable is still to be seen inside these gaps, they might have been used for the distribution of energy (electricity, pressurized air) for auxiliary purpose.
If a Torpedopressluft-system did exist like in Austratt, I have no idea where it was located. The nearest way is from the ventilation room 15 through the walls to the intermediate platform by the gaps inside the wall by using a special flex air hose as described by JEF.

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moonraker
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by moonraker » 23 Aug 2018 10:16

hello juestr,

please see the picture,the pipe is blue,so it's about from "zuluftleitung" warm air filter for this room.just Überdruck remove ...

Me belfra-team
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wimve
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by wimve » 23 Aug 2018 12:37

Karola_Ro 429-01-02_langs-web.jpg
Karola_Ro 429-01-02_dwars_web.jpg
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Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 23 Aug 2018 16:37

moonraker wrote:
23 Aug 2018 10:16
hello juestr,

please see the picture,the pipe is blue,so it's about from "zuluftleitung" warm air filter for this room.just Überdruck remove ...

Me belfra-team
Salut,
unfortunately I don´t understand what you mean. The pipe is blue ? I don´t see any blue colour...Just Überdruck remove ?
Tu peux mieux m´expliquer en francais, plus facile pour toi et pour moi je pense

Gruß
Jürgen

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 23 Aug 2018 17:29

juestr wrote:
23 Aug 2018 09:51
Janef wrote:
21 Aug 2018 17:13

Unfortunately I do not have any data on the "missing" compressor on the Zwischenplattform. What I know is that the 28 cm turret needed 90 atü for each of the three gun barrel recuperators, as well as filling up the two 356 litre air bottles for the hydraulic accummulator system to provide a service pressure in the accumulators at 68 atü. The German manuals only state that this pressured air came from the fixed ship Torpedopressluft-system.
The compressor on the picture is rated at 200 atü which is the level the Torpedopressluft-system operated at. (The small starter air compressor shown in another picture delivers 30 atü, the pressure neded for starting the diesels.)
The missing compressor was maybe a reserve system in case of the Torpedopressluft-system not working.
looking today to the original 28 cm and 38 cm seaborne turret plans I could not recognize/find a compressor as seen for the 20,3 cm turret on the intermediate plattform. May be it never did exist for auxiliary purpose.

As the 20,3 cm turrets are close technical relatives to the 28 cm C/28 turrets, I think there must have been a similar Torpedopressluft-system at the land based 20,3 cm batteries. At Austrått this compressor is locaded in a room in the staircase system at the same height as the Maschinenplattform, where the manometers and connection fittings were located.

JEF
At Dora at the same height as the Maschinenplattform there is nothing else but the 3,50 m concrete roof of the bunker. However in this respect we find two curious straight gaps in the cylindrical wall at the height of the intermediate platform for unknown reason till now.

...
As an electric cable is still to be seen inside these gaps, they might have been used for the distribution of energy (electricity, pressurized air) for auxiliary purpose.
If a Torpedopressluft-system did exist like in Austratt, I have no idea where it was located. The nearest way is from the ventilation room 15 through the walls to the intermediate platform by the gaps inside the wall by using a special flex air hose as described by JEF.
Sorry - some of my text seems to be missing.
A metal air pressure tube ran from the room with the 200 atü compressor (located in a room in the staircase) out into the concrete shaft where it was fixed to the concrete and ran straight upwards and ended with a valve approx one meter above the Machinenplattform deck. From this walve they used a flexible hose to connect the pipe to the air distribution terminal located on the left side of the ammunition hoist for the left barrel. On the 20,3 cm the arrangement is similar and air terminal is located on the left side of the ammunition hoist shaft.
And a compressor like device seems to be located in the Zwischenplattform.
On the hydraulic distribution drawing there is a connection marked: Anschlussstutzen für die Pressluftzuführung.
Drawing reference: Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde Band I Seeziel, reprint of the Schiff-Artillerie-Schule issue dated 1942 by Biblio Verlag, Osnabrück 1997.

JEF

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 23 Aug 2018 21:36

Janef wrote:
23 Aug 2018 17:29
..................
Sorry - some of my text seems to be missing.
A metal air pressure tube ran from the room with the 200 atü compressor (located in a room in the staircase) out into the concrete shaft where it was fixed to the concrete and ran straight upwards and ended with a valve approx one meter above the Machinenplattform deck. From this walve they used a flexible hose to connect the pipe to the air distribution terminal located on the left side of the ammunition hoist for the left barrel. On the 20,3 cm the arrangement is similar and air terminal is located on the left side of the ammunition hoist shaft.
And a compressor like device seems to be located in the Zwischenplattform.
On the hydraulic distribution drawing there is a connection marked: Anschlussstutzen für die Pressluftzuführung.
Drawing reference: Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde Band I Seeziel, reprint of the Schiff-Artillerie-Schule issue dated 1942 by Biblio Verlag, Osnabrück 1997.

JEF
JEF,
thanks a lot about this serious discussion which effects for me more and deeper thinking and a closer look to the documents.

1. The room located in the staircase is it that room showed above with the compressor and the heat-exchanger, fan and filter ??

2. Where did you find the location of the air distribution terminal on the 20,3 cm turret ? Page 116 of your reference ? I have this book since 20 years, unfortunately there is no explaining text. I would prefer a terminal on the intermediate plattform because of the two described "energy-gaps"

Image


3. My assumption about an air compressor on the intermediate plattform is WRONG !!
In reality the shown compressor is one of the two auxiliary electric ammunition hoists (pages 117 and 154). So the situation is like the 28 cm and 38 cm turret - no air-compressor at all inside the turret.

Image

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 24 Aug 2018 10:31

Jürgen post 34 your ? mark , is a "Uberdruckventil or Zuluftventil" . This must be your photo :thumbsup:
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wimve
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by wimve » 24 Aug 2018 10:47

jopaerya wrote:
24 Aug 2018 10:31
Jürgen post 34 your ? mark , is a "Uberdruckventil" . This must be your photo :thumbsup:
Picture shows a "Luftungsventil mit Flanschanscluss" mainly used as a air outlet which outlet could be changed by turning the round cover plate on the central bolt.
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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