S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

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jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 24 Aug 2018 12:09

Thanks for the correction Wim

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 24 Aug 2018 12:37

juestr wrote:
23 Aug 2018 21:36
Janef wrote:
23 Aug 2018 17:29
1. The room located in the staircase is it that room showed above with the compressor and the heat-exchanger, fan and filter ??

2. Where did you find the location of the air distribution terminal on the 20,3 cm turret ? Page 116 of your reference ? I have this book since 20 years, unfortunately there is no explaining text. I would prefer a terminal on the intermediate plattform because of the two described "energy-gaps"

3. My assumption about an air compressor on the intermediate plattform is WRONG !!
In reality the shown compressor is one of the two auxiliary electric ammunition hoists (pages 117 and 154). So the situation is like the 28 cm and 38 cm turret - no air-compressor at all inside the turret.
Ad 1. The top room contains the compressor unit and a fan coupled to an heat convector (hot water tubes heating the passing air). I have not traced the piping in detail, but I will have a look at it on tuesday next week.
There are three rooms in the staircase at Austrått. At the entrance level we have the central heating pan, at the next level (shell level) the inlet to the coal storage and at the top level (powder level) the compressor and convector system.
Ad 2. Page 134 - at the bottom of the drawing. (Use an 5 - 7x enlarger, very difficult to read with only Eye-Balls Mk.1)
Ad 3. Note there is a third device shown on page 117 close to the left of the ammunition hoist. Function unknown to me.
JEF

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 24 Aug 2018 14:36

jopaerya wrote:
24 Aug 2018 10:31
Jürgen post 34 your ? mark , is a "Uberdruckventil or Zuluftventil" . This must be your photo :thumbsup:
One (of xxxx) mystery less !

No, it is not my photo. It shows the situation of room 15 in "Anton" before 2017. I think it comes from Dirk in 2012.
Like in "Dora" the "Flanschdeckel" is at least since 2017 missing (stolen), see my following picture from 2017.
Unfortunately I didn´look to my pictures of 2009 which show this special "Flanschdeckel".
All my Dora-pictures are without this "Flanschdeckel"

room 15 Anton in 2017
Image

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 24 Aug 2018 14:38

wimve wrote:
24 Aug 2018 10:47
jopaerya wrote:
24 Aug 2018 10:31
Jürgen post 34 your ? mark , is a "Uberdruckventil" . This must be your photo :thumbsup:
Picture shows a "Luftungsventil mit Flanschanscluss" mainly used as a air outlet which outlet could be changed by turning the round cover plate on the central bolt.
I guess that is what "moonraker" wanted to explain to me !?

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 24 Aug 2018 16:09

Janef wrote:
24 Aug 2018 12:37

Ad 1. The top room contains the compressor unit and a fan coupled to an heat convector (hot water tubes heating the passing air). I have not traced the piping in detail, but I will have a look at it on tuesday next week.
There are three rooms in the staircase at Austrått. At the entrance level we have the central heating pan, at the next level (shell level) the inlet to the coal storage and at the top level (powder level) the compressor and convector system.

Ad 2. Page 134 - at the bottom of the drawing. (Use an 5 - 7x enlarger, very difficult to read with only Eye-Balls Mk.1)
I already found the “Anschlußstutzen für Pressluftzuführung” in the schematic diagram of page 134 before your post.
But you stated the physical location of this “Anschlußstutzen”:
“……and ended with a valve approx one meter above the Machinenplattform deck. From this walve they used a flexible hose to connect the pipe to the air distribution terminal located on the left side of the ammunition hoist for the left barrel. On the 20,3 cm the arrangement is similar and air terminal is located on the left side of the ammunition hoist shaft.”
Where did you find that ??
Looking once more to this diagram because of your remarks, I found another interesting information (with enlarger) – just the opposite of you.

Above the red line is the "Maschinenplattform", below the "Zwischenplattform" (intermediate plattform)
Image

The “Stutzen” is situated below the Maschinenplattform, this means somewhere on the Zwischenplattform and so near the described “energy-gaps”

Ad 3. Note there is a third device shown on page 117 close to the left of the ammunition hoist. Function unknown to me.
JEF
Looks like a big electric motor, but that makes no sense.
The other devices shown around the ammunition hoists are unknown too (for me).
Two other longitudinal cuts from the turret only show the air-bottles and the “hoist motor”

Gruß
Jürgen

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 25 Aug 2018 18:45

Janef wrote:
24 Aug 2018 12:37
juestr wrote:
23 Aug 2018 21:36
Janef wrote:
23 Aug 2018 17:29
1. The room located in the staircase is it that room showed above with the compressor and the heat-exchanger, fan and filter ??

2. Where did you find the location of the air distribution terminal on the 20,3 cm turret ? Page 116 of your reference ? I have this book since 20 years, unfortunately there is no explaining text. I would prefer a terminal on the intermediate plattform because of the two described "energy-gaps"

3. My assumption about an air compressor on the intermediate plattform is WRONG !!
In reality the shown compressor is one of the two auxiliary electric ammunition hoists (pages 117 and 154). So the situation is like the 28 cm and 38 cm turret - no air-compressor at all inside the turret.
Ad 1. The top room contains the compressor unit and a fan coupled to an heat convector (hot water tubes heating the passing air). I have not traced the piping in detail, but I will have a look at it on tuesday next week.
There are three rooms in the staircase at Austrått. At the entrance level we have the central heating pan, at the next level (shell level) the inlet to the coal storage and at the top level (powder level) the compressor and convector system.
Ad 2. Page 134 - at the bottom of the drawing. (Use an 5 - 7x enlarger, very difficult to read with only Eye-Balls Mk.1)
Ad 3. Note there is a third device shown on page 117 close to the left of the ammunition hoist. Function unknown to me.
JEF
Sorry - this posting went all to fast.
The staircase covers 4 flors (1-4), the lowest in the end of the entrance tunnel, the top flor at the powder magazinne level.
1. Central heating pan and entrance tunnel (appr. 5,5 meters under the lowest part of the gun turret)
2. Coal bunker room (coal bunker open bottom to the lower flor)
3. The compressor and the convector system room at the shell magazine level
4. A storage room at the powder magazine level

JEF

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 28 Aug 2018 14:46

juestr wrote:
24 Aug 2018 16:09



Above the red line is the "Maschinenplattform", below the "Zwischenplattform" (intermediate plattform)
Image

The “Stutzen” is situated below the Maschinenplattform, this means somewhere on the Zwischenplattform and so near the described “energy-gaps”

Gruß
Jürgen
Here is a photo from Austrått (Maschinenplattform) that shows the location of the Pressluft contact on the bunker wall (A) and Turret coupling (B).
Pressluft.jpg
This is also the main reason for the direction the turret is "parked" in.

JEF
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juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 28 Aug 2018 21:48

To avoid confusion, the plan showed above is from the seaborne 20,3 cm turret, where the "Anschlußstutzen" (plug) is located near the air-bottles on the intermediate platform.
Janef shows the real situation from the 28 cm turret on land, where this joint/plug has been extended from the bottles to the platform above, probably for easier and/or quicker handling ?!

In either case the high pressure air plug with its piping extension might have been installed wherever suitable.
Regarding Anton and Dora (20,3 cm) I prefer (but don´t know) the intermediate platform because it is the nearest way to a possible position of the compressor station and it is very near and at the same height to the both niches which must have a sense.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 29 Aug 2018 09:24

jopaerya wrote:
24 Aug 2018 10:31
Jürgen post 34 your ? mark , is a "Uberdruckventil or Zuluftventil" . This must be your photo :thumbsup:
I have to come back to room 15 - ventilation and air-conditioning room at least for the ammo-magazines.
You told me that the opening is a "Zuluftventil" or "Überdruckventil". If so - I have no doubt -
I can´t see any further opening neither in the walls nor at the installed equipment to branch a fan.
And a fan is visible in all plans from Lindemann, Gr.Kurfürst, the picture from Austratt etc.

Image

Image

Do you have an idea ?

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 29 Aug 2018 10:16

Hello Jürgen

I think the BLUE circle is the large pipe for in- and outlet , the ORANGE pipe is your ??? mark to the ammo magazines
please see the PK photo and your plan ?? But I could be wrong , next question were did the pipe go to after the dust filter ??

Regards Jos
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juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 29 Aug 2018 13:47

jopaerya wrote:
29 Aug 2018 10:16
Hello Jürgen

I think the BLUE circle is the large pipe for in- and outlet , the ORANGE pipe is your ??? mark to the ammo magazines
please see the PK photo and your plan ?? But I could be wrong , next question were did the pipe go to after the dust filter ??

Regards Jos
Jos,
I think you are wrong.
Here a better version for identifying

Image

room 15, Anton 2009
Image

1. Your blue circle shows a big pipe inside the 3,50 m outside wall, going from the roof besides the turret to the basement. I do not see a junction to the first floor - but it is possible.

2. The orange circle shows without any doubt the pipe to the ammo magazines with a junction for both floors (cartridge and shells). It is the point 1 in the picture, a pipe sorting directly from the heat-exchanger.

3. Your yellow circle show the open staircase. The inner wall between room 13 and 15 (= between yellow and orange circle) does not yet exist.
The point 3 after the filter B is an opening in a 3,50 outer wall, direction unknown. The pipe between heat-exchanger A and filter B was already missing in 2009. Even if A and B are at the same height, a fan could have been installed at the bottom between the heat-exchanger and the filter. I am also looking to the electric cables.
Is that technically imaginable ??

4. The tube at point 2 goes to an internal wall and joins quite sure a tube going outside.

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 04 Sep 2018 15:50

Janef wrote:
17 Aug 2018 21:15
AvB wrote:
17 Aug 2018 08:55
I have no clue what it is. But I believe more and more we have to check the inventory of ships rather than navy bunkers because it all seems to be copied from ship to land.

Here are more detailed pictures. I can send you the highres images if you like.
This is the air Compressor for providing high pressure air for the recuperators and the two air bottles for anti-shock prevention in the hydraulic turret system. When the turret was shipborne there was a compressor for these tasks on the intermediate plattform beneath the engineering platform. The one on the picture was part of the land system. A special flex air hose was fitted when the turret systems were to be replenished.

JEF
After checking the available documentation on the 28 cm turret is seems clear to me that my statement on a compressor on the Zwischenplattform is wrong. What was on the Zwischenplattform was a generator/converter for the Krag-system (gyrosystem) for the shipborne turret. As there is no "Schlingern und Stampfen" in a landbased battery, the whole fire control data receiver system including the Krag system was removed and replaced by the much simpler land based Epa-Seipa system in combination with the land based Meter-Erhöhungsbogen. The same goes for the 20,3 cm land based batteries as well as the u/c Vogelnest 38 cm battery in the Esbjerg area.

JEF

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 07 Sep 2018 20:53

The ventilation circuit of the air-condition plant for the ammo-magazines has not yet been clarified. But the air has not only to be heated up but also refrigerated dependent on the climatic conditions.
Looking to the plans of “Großer Kurfürst”

Image

and Lindemann situated at the Channel

Image

we see consequently also a refrigerant compressor for cooling. So the climatic situation at Ile de Ré / Karola in south-western France requires even more such a cooling device.

Does anybody knows more about these compressor-refrigerators (pictures, drawings etc.) ??

I suppose that for the climate in middle and/or northern Norway a refrigerator was not necessary. JEF didn´t talk about it.

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 08 Sep 2018 07:46

Hello Jürgen

It looks like that ammo rooms had also a radiator for warming, just like the bathroom .
You can see in the ammo room a large niche for a radiator ??

Maybe the Lufthitzer could also be used for ventilation when they running cold water in the pipes ??

Regards Jos

Janef
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Janef » 08 Sep 2018 10:00

juestr wrote:
07 Sep 2018 20:53
The ventilation circuit of the air-condition plant for the ammo-magazines has not yet been clarified. But the air has not only to be heated up but also refrigerated dependent on the climatic conditions.
Looking to the plans of “Großer Kurfürst”

I suppose that for the climate in middle and/or northern Norway a refrigerator was not necessary. JEF didn´t talk about it.
Well, the climate in Norway does not interfere with the bunker storage requirements for the propellant at all. On the ships, and I imagine in France, heat is a problem. Onboard ships the powder temperature were required to be kept below +30 degrees C. Hence the refrigerator systems, of which there were none in the batteries in Norway. In Norway it was more about heating the powder magazines to keep the temperature as close to +15 degrees C. as possible. Inside a rock the temperature is very stable througout the year.

+15 degrees is the normal temperature for the powder, for which the firing tables are laid out.

JEF

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