S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

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CSEverett
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by CSEverett » 10 Mar 2023 19:22

Working with wimve's model, and having access to feldbahn rolling stock, it seems that the siding holds two cars:

Image

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Bunkerfreak
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Bunkerfreak » 11 Mar 2023 20:17

indeed Wimve, those 3D drawnings are very time consuming. Mostly everyone may use mine (not as detailled as yourse because my low grade laptop cant handle larger details). But sometimes you get overwhelmed by what some people dare to ask... for a fortress-group of antwerp i was contacted with the proposal that i can use there archives (which i also have) and in return i draw the fortresses in 3D exclusively for them...

euh i passed that offer... i'm not someones muppet.

CSEverett
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by CSEverett » 22 Mar 2023 17:21

With texturing and interior details for the main room left for now, I moved on to the turret. I have no hope of interior details for the turret, so I took the easy route and found a 3d model of an Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser that the turrets were from, and separated a turret to put on the bunker. The rivets look pretty prominent on the photo posted, so I might add them to the mesh. Which brings up the next question - how was the turret painted? I can certainly modify what came with the cruiser's turret into whatever is needed, but I don't know what that is. These are the textures that came with the 3d model:

Image

Gray with a black-gray top I'm pretty certain is wrong, but I don't know what it should be instead.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 02 Nov 2023 11:52

I am still alive – just another 3 years older and some health problems more

I am really angry about CSEverett´s insulting posts #84 and #86. Those totally wrong assumptions are against my honor and reputation, and thus from someone who does not know me at all, who I do not know and who seems not to have read this whole topic from the very beginning.

I remember:
After a long hesitation I will follow Jos proposition, I would like to open a new special thread for the combined Regelbauten S473 / S483, housing the original naval gun-turrets 20,3 cm SK/C34C i.Drh. from the heavy cruiser “Seydlitz” (Hipper-class)......
So this topic should be filled up with all existing knowledge on this high sophisticated technical equipment necessary for naval purpose, but installed on land. ….....
and, part 2:
Incredible, but another 2 years have gone - and we (my "3d-friend F.Lerch" and myself) are still working very intensively on my project to restore exactly this very interesting and unique Bunkersystem by a 3D model, as it was and as it is today.
Another 13 (!!) visits of Anton and Dora , up to 3 hours inside and mostly alone, some of them spent with friends of mine, made this reconstruction possible.
To know more about the "flooded" rooms in the basement of S473 I used (non-professional) "submarine equipment" for 3 explorations to take pictures and video clips.
In this report I refer to the first part at the very beginning of this thread. So all interested people please have a look to that first part before going on. ….......


This topic has not created by me for modelers purpose, but for serious „bunker archaeology“ research in order to increase the knowledge of an interesting and unique item.
I am engineer who passed his whole professional career in research and development. So I am very familiar with all related procedures and behaviour.


The book:

Image

About one year ago Alain Chazette, the well known author and publisher of numerous books since 40 years regarding the Atlantikwall in France, asked me to participate to a new book with the results of my research on the battery Karola at Ile de Ré. As my project was and is not finished, I hesitated, but he was right: I have no experience, no time, no fun at all to write and publish a book by my own. So once a time all the work and efforts would be just for the waste basket.
I agreed under the conditions to get space (pages) enough as needed (finally 28 pages + cover), to write all the text myself and to maintain the only copyright of all my text and images.
I can tell you, that for two months till Christmas it was a really hard job for me.
See here the beginning of my contribution with a very important statement about the copyright:

Image


The money-making:
My only financial advantages were no charge of production costs and two books for free, including shipping to Germany.

The illegal use of intellectual property right:
The well-disposed reader may decide where is mainly the intellectual property for this very special item of battery Karola (Ars).

The illegal, abusive use of pictures = infringement of copyright
Only since 2005, the numerical period, I took good and useful photos
- 1.536 (8,8 GB) only of the two Bunker Anton and Dora
- 28 video clips (22,3 GB), about 10 min. each), only of the two Bunker Anton and Dora
- 5.231 (20,7 GB) actual photos from the related Stp. Käthe, Kora, Karola
- 199 video clips (40,2 GB) from Stp. Kora and Karola
- 8.177 (71,3 GB) actual photos from all Stp. at Ile de Ré
additionally I have
- 610 historical photos from Stp. Kora and Karola
- 2.250 (3 GB) historical photos from IdR
- 21 historical reports only of Stp. Karola
- Leitfaden für den Artillerieunterricht in der Kriegsmarine, 1938, Teil I Ballistik; Teil II Geschützmechanik
- Koop / Schmolke, Die schweren Kreuzer der Admiral Hipper-Klasse, 1992
- especially: Unterichtstafeln für Geschützkunde, Band 1 Seeziel, 1942
- hundreds of books of fortification litterature (Maginot, Séré, Vallo Alpino, Festen, Atlantikwall)
- all related German military and industrial standard specifications

In the sketchup (3D program) working area I have 4.066 photos, images and skp-files (27,8 GB) for developing the 3D model.

Who will really predicate that I needed and took illegally images and information from third persons in my chapter of the book?
In any case, nearly all photos came from A.Chazette instead from me.


Wimve:
CSEverett as representative (really??) of Wim accuses me of illegal use of “an initial 3d model and information … without wimve's permission either to monetize it.” (#86).
The objective of my project since its beginning in feb. 2017 was to know and to show if the original twin 20,3cm naval turret had been integrated into the two combined Regelbauten WITHOUT any modifications even for the peripheral equipment.
I decided to find out the exact dimensions of the Bunker as built (sorted from the formwork) in order to clarify this question.
As soon as I realized errors, even a bigger one, in the measurements from Dirk Peters and after my first measurement campaign I felt it necessary to control all in a 3d plan and not only in a 2d version as I always did before.
At that time I had no 3d program and no experience at all. So I got into contact with Wim in sep. 2017, who at that time was working on a 3D model of these Bunker, using the 2D database from Dirk. Beside public (axis) we had a private intensive but also controversional discussion by sharing a lot of plans, pictures, data, arguments. I still have them.
To get a feeling about what is a free 3d model I asked him (citation:) for a simple example – not for Anton/Dora. Instead he sent me his actual 3D-file from his model, a great sign of confidence !!!
He got videos from the whole interior of Dora from me.
I was really impressed and asked him to cooperate directly as 3d-modeler in my project. Wim unfortunately did not agree to my conditions, what I understood well.
He made his model without any knowledge of heights (z-coordinates).
In 2017 I had measured only some of them, and no measurements at all from the flooded basement.
Instead he had the exact dimensions (like myself) of the whole turret. So Wim constructed the building “around” the turret, supposing that the turret platforms had not been modified and that the bottom of the turret equals with the basement floor.
It is just the opposite of my objective (goal) and that is why his model was completely useless for me.
With his experience he had seen, that working with me as a 3d modeler, his whole (simplified) model had to be changed , even renewed completely, and with my “+- 2cm accuracy doctrine in x-y-z directions it would take 10 times longer, or more.
He wants to make very good models and to show them.

By chance I had realized that an old fortification-friend of mine, Fritz Lerch, living 200 km from my home, is a very experienced and respected (hobby) specialist for the same free 3d software. He made all explanatory models which can be seen all along the visitor circuit in the huge Maginot fort of Schoenenbourg/France. Like myself he is member in the AALMA-association since more than 40 years.
Look here, numerous models about Schoenenbourg from him: https://www.facebook.com/groups/3097105 ... 548049050/

Fritz agreed and so we work closely together from 2018 til today. He has the patience and the will to accept all my input, hundreds of corrections, attempts, complete revisions, my “spleen”. He has designed and drawn the whole building itself using my knowledge and database, starting by zero, phoning nearly each day. During the time I got more and more familiar with the program, thanks to my teacher, So I was able to draw first the design-studies and then a lot of the bunker equipment.
By using all memory economizing methods, only known to experts, our modular model (skp-files) has totally (dec. 2022)
- 722 MB
- 24,9 and 37,6 MB only for the 2 Diesel-engines
In comparison Wim´s initial model from 4/29/2018, sent to me, has in total 16,2 MB !!!
No comment necessary.

And only for the modelers:
Without the landscape, the walls, the floor and the ceilings our model has
- 23.211.529 Kanten
- 10.641.097 Flächen
- 16.838 Komponenten
- 35.326 Gruppen


I spent a lot of money 2 years ago for more powerful hardware, but the bottleneck is now the free software (version 2016/17). A complete skp-file of the Bunker with all its equipment cannot be opened – and not be shared.

Summary: We never used any line or whatever else from Wim´s model nor informations from him.
I am sure, Wim will agree, knowing now the facts.


Sharing:
This thread and its links contain so many never seen, never known, always disputed, always supposed facts, now cleared and proven, that in my mind only non bunker-archaeologist, non field explorer, non researcher will complain about sharing.
As I can see, those who really supported this project did understand it. Thank you, AvB, for your objections.


The book of only 200 copies seems to be sold out. That makes me feel free to publish my part wherever and to whom I want. Initially I thought about this thread here in axis (created therefore), but after this bad experience I prefer to send a copy to the major direct or indirect collaborators, - Janef, Jef, AvB, Christian, Patrick …...
I am also thinking especially of my very good friend Jean-Luc (jazote), who died in january 2022.
the following picture in memoriam to our common visit(I was mostly alone) in the basement of Anton in 2019, both in the water.

Image


Now back to the “roots”.
In connection to the antecedent here an interesting view of the turret pit and ammunition stores, filled up with sand from the surrounding dune since 1997.
Image

After digging a little bit and cleaning I was able in 2018/19 to find one (2) of the origins of coordinates (see arrow above) defining the z-position of the turret in respect of the bunker. In Austratt the fixed platforms and the revolving ones of the turret are at the same level (max. +- 3cm)
At a secondary effect the dimensions of the steel beams supporting the fixed platform and the DIN nuts and bolts were known.

Image

Here shown the same, not rusty, in the model.
The structure of the beams using the Dora dimensions has been designed similarly to Austratt, illustrated by pictures from AvB and later on discussed in detail with Janef. Thanks to both.

Image

Last year I could “restore” the complete electrical circuit for consumer load (lighting, ventilators, etc.). That means, the output from the switchboard in the power plant to all consumers.
It is not possible (for me) to restore the electrical input from the generators to the board.

Here the circuit for the only S483
Image

The transition of the walls and floors from one room to the other and the crossings were sometimes very difficult to follow and the understanding extremely time consuming. Sometimes parts of cable were missing, meanwhile all junction boxes have disappeard, but all clamps/cleats are still in place.
It is interesting now to “see” by which switch happens what and so to understand the principle of the electrical distribution in such an artillery installation. May be this could be shown in a simple way within the model. I will ask Fritz.

Example of the transition between room 9 and room 5, wall 100 cm thick
room 9, engine room
Image

room 5 on the other side of the wall
Image
and in the model (not yet corrected)
Image

The same situation with the latest (last, I think) corrections. The boxes are newly designed after buying an original Siemens type at Ebay – the same as at Karola.
Image

Bakelit Verteiler Siemens von Ebay
Image

All junction boxes of different variations have to be replaced and the cables newly arranged. As I said some years ago: a never ending story -

I did identify the circuit of fresh water, from the well over the pump to the lavatory. But no trace at all of a tank and its pipes to store some water and to have a constant pressure.
A branch pipe is going to the heater room. There is supposed to be a hot water boiler connected to the heater (traces under water and the corresponding pipe circuit).
It is not proven, if another branch goes to the engine room and farther to the tank room (cooling water for the engines).
All this needs discussion.

And no 3d modeling has been done for the turret itself, beside the "turret hood". Not a single photo seems to exist.

Last but not least, the complete ammo handling (only one side) in S473 and a look into the engine room

Image

Image

and now a closer look to the 100 PS Deutz diesel engine (the same model as before)

Image

Image

I am really proud to show this engine because it is my beginner-masterpiece after several months of work with a lot of deceptions.
It took also much time before drawing to get informations about this engine, unfortunately no technical drawings with dimensions were available.

Very fascinating and useful are the infinitely visual possibilities to show an object - and this is Wim´s merit having drawn my attention to this powerful tool

Jürgen
Last edited by juestr on 02 Nov 2023 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 02 Nov 2023 15:21

CSEverett wrote:
22 Mar 2023 17:21
With texturing and interior details for the main room left for now, I moved on to the turret. I have no hope of interior details for the turret, so I took the easy route and found a 3d model of an Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser that the turrets were from, and separated a turret to put on the bunker. The rivets look pretty prominent on the photo posted, so I might add them to the mesh. Which brings up the next question - how was the turret painted? I can certainly modify what came with the cruiser's turret into whatever is needed, but I don't know what that is. These are the textures that came with the 3d model:
Gray with a black-gray top I'm pretty certain is wrong, but I don't know what it should be instead.

And now another question from your side!

1. By using Wimve´s model, why did you need to take the “turret hood” from
…. a 3d model of an Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser that the turrets were from, ,
as Wim already in 2017 had designed this part of the turret in his model, sent to me and showed in post #40??

2. Why you do not read the whole thread/topic,
why you do not follow the links to get the information you want without asking?

3. Why you seem not searching at all in this forum and others?

And if there is not enough information here in axis, you should have a look and search in french forum like “Superforum”.
There you will find so much stuff about this topic (text, photos, drawings, dimensions from Dirk, ...) that you will only need to ask for really “difficult” questions. To get such basic informations is not at all a question of hope!
By the way, neither English nor French are my native languages.

Nevertheless you get a tip from me.
Did you ever realize, where the 2 Bunker have been built? If not, look to #71, or follow my links where “jopaerya” presents 2 real ! coloured (not colorized later on) pictures. Then – hopefully – you will have your answer.

And, look what “Bunkerfreak” said at the end of his post!

juestr

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 02 Nov 2023 15:44

CSEverett wrote:
18 Feb 2023 09:30
And it turns out that Juestr is still alive, and he went and took everybody's contributions and wrote a book:
https://www.histoire-fortifications.com ... 70_-b.html
I tired buying a copy, but they don't ship to the US. Since he crossed so many red lines in writing it and charging money for it, does anybody have a copy and could send to scans my way of any S473/S483 drawings, or 3d model views that are top-down,side-on, or show the train area? Considering he didn't get the permission needed in order to make money off of those who contributed in the first place, I see considerably less of a problem with that then it would be otherwise.
Thanks.
and
CSEverett wrote:
28 Feb 2023 04:24
….......
Alternately, if somebody already has the book, could they sends scan of drawings or directly top-down views of the upper level in the areas the train goes through my way? I don't really need great data on the lower level, or the turret, but the area of the upper level to the "right" of the turret I really do need accurate plans of. (Doesn't have to have dimensions called out everywhere, either, I can work with it if it doesn't.) (I would just buy the book, but I can't figure out a way to do so.)
Thanks.
What shall I say?
Are-you courageous, careless, strange?
You are declaring publicly that you do not want to care about infringement of copyright, that you want to copy , use and perhaps publish the results of my 6 years research results! The excuse for you, that all these results have been “stolen” by me and so it is “open source”.

Instead of asking the pretended “true owner(s)” for permission or just for copies you appeal to the members/readers of this forum to do this (in reality) illegal job of copying my results for you.
As far as I understand the legislation, even buying the book doesn´t change anything when publishing your model.

As far as I can see nobody complied with your demand – at least not here in public.
That´s what I expected!

So the best what I can say, it is a very strange behaviour from your side.

juestr
Last edited by juestr on 03 Nov 2023 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

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AvB
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by AvB » 02 Nov 2023 20:53

I have much admiration for your thorough work. I personally don’t have the patience for this level of detail but I very much enjoy seeing it! Glad I could help out. Maybe you consider publishing it on my bunkersite.com, on hour terms.

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Bunkerfreak » 07 Nov 2023 21:08

wow thats what i call dedicated work in sketchup!

i create a lot in sketchup, but with my cheap laptop i need to stick to simplified 3D and 2D plans.

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 13 Nov 2023 16:05

Battery Ars, Anton and Dora, built in “Baustärke A ( 3,50 m) ,
how I was able to define and to verify.

Summary:

In this thread several times I talked about the Baustärke A of these bunker without explaining the details how I found it out.
The following plans are the oldest “official" ones I know, made by a french group of the “Marine Nationale" in 1947 under their leader “Pinczon de Sel”

Image

Image

These plans had always be copied, sometimes arranged a little bit. The outer walls are reported as having a thickness of 200 cm.
The only exception published by Rhode, but without proof.
The whole building is covered with sand forming an artificial dune. So the outer walls and the roof cannot be seen.


My steps to find out and verify “Baustärke A”

Bunker S483

1. I made the very first measurements 2017 and 2018 outside in the entrance area,
where the right outer wall seems to be conical from 150 cm over 200 cm in the middle to an unknown larger end (shown in #1, explained in #20 of this thread)


2. Thickness of the roof.

Measuring the height in the entrance.
Only since ca. 2017 it was possible to measure the height through a suitable opening in the entrance roof of Anton.
Dora, who was always covered, could not be measured.

Image above the entrance of Anton

Image

This is easiest way to know about the thickness of the roof (near the entrance area).
I did the measurements first alone by help of a laser (nearly impossible to have good values) and then by logging off with a string.
The tendency was ok, but the always varying dimensions did not satify. By applying the laser and/or the log the bottom of the ground/floor was not visible.
Next time (year?), by two persons and by cleaning first the ground of the entrance, I got very good results. 350 cm (+-)

red: measured
green: calculated

Image


3. Measuring the free length of the horizontal 50 cm ventilation tube (room 7, on the right side) until the sand plug.

Image

Image

Result: ca. 300 cm.
Not really a proof because the tube might traverse the wall and lead outside the wall


4. Next step, the laborious and time-consuming exploration of the 65 cm horizontal ventilation tube in room 7, Anton.
The total exploration has been done during several visits between 2017 and 2019.

here inside Anton

Image

In the beginning (2017) I had no idea what to expect.
After a first look and a discussion about, Jos sent me a drawing of a M219 Bunker which allowed me to understand.
Thanks a lot once more. The plan was extremely important.

2019, beginning by cleaning,

Image

Image


then measuring of all related distances.

Image

Image


Messschema:

Image

Here a snapshot inside the “cage” from an (unfortunately very bad) video clip.
On the left side the outer concrete wall of the bunker. Above the wooden planks protecting the opening against the sand.

Image

All dimensions had to be entered into the cad-program to control the measurements As usual, corrections were necessary, re-measuring etc
The result:
The thickness of the wall was measured as 350 cm.

The bunker wall could be traversed into the outside “cage” (what is the real name?) at right.

Attention!
This “cage”is about 5m below the sand surface. It is not recommended to do the same what I did. I will never go back there – and there is nothing else to see and to find than shown by me pictures!!



Bunker S473

5. The first attempt to define the wall´s width is a very simple one, hundreds of times used by myself.
In march 2017 jopaerya (Jos) published very interesting historical photos >>>
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=192274&hilit=ile+d ... a#p2070204, see also my comments .

By using a suitable photo like this, respecting the perspective, it is possible to define unknown lengths only by “pixel comparing”, by a known length and by the rule of three.

The same can be done with an pdf-file and the Acrobat Software without knowing the rule.
The result in this case was 364 cm, not bad.

Image

Another possibility is to integrate the photo into the 3d program and let it do this job for you.
Mostly it does not work better, but allows designing the object directly.


6. In this “turret-bunker” no accessible and measurable openings to outside exist.
The turret pit is completely filled with sand, both bunker are covered by sand.
Only a part of the rounded concrete barbette (collar) around the turret is still visible.

Image

One day by passing at this place, I realized that the upper side of the barbette is horizonzal.

Image

This horizontal length can be seen and measured.
But before doing that, the inner barbette ring must be found by digging. Then the horizontal distance can be defined.

Image

Image


The following two figures are showing the modus operandi of finding out the thickness of the outer wall around the turret.

blue: known coordinates, referring to the origin of coordinates (steal beam) explained #94
red: measured coordinates
green: resulting coordinates and lengths

The origin of z-coordinates and the main dimensions of the revolving turret
from “Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde, Band 1, Seeziel“ and MDV 233 .....

Image

Querschnitt (z- coordinate):

Image

Supposing that the wall is 350 cm thick (as shown in points 4+5 of this post), AND that the barbette surface falls together with the outer surface of the wall, then ONLY ONE radius (quarter of a circle) for the barbette is possible (green)


Längsschnitt (x-coordinate):

By applying a quarter of circle with the SAME radius in x-direction we get the thickness of the roof (green)

Image

Putting all together in the 3d program led to a very exciting moment:
The so designed and DEFINED roof of S473 (and S483) has as well 350 cm above the powder-storage room.
Finding that out was one of the most amazing and happiest moments during my project.


7. What about the inclined surfaces at the edges of the whole roof?

There are a lot of similar examples,e.g. like “Vogelnest/Tirpitz”.
The position of the chimney near the entrance could be exactly defined by measuring outside (2019) relatively to the entrance “collar”.
The position inside is not known, the corresponding tube is not visible. Maybe it is going to the Wandringlüfter in the lavatory.
Once more after digging a bit you recognize the beginning of the slope (Dora), see arrow

Image

and here more precisely near the chimney on the right (Anton)

Image

I didn´t have the best tool for measuring the angle of the slope, but in this case 45° are very reasonnable.
Now with these defined positions the whole inclined surfaces could be designed all around the roof of both bunker.
Result: the barbette fits exactly with  the lower edge of the slope (green point).
Two different procedures (proofs) fall together, more then I expected

Image

Unlike the chimney near the entrance the position of the other ones are exactly known by the measurements inside, described in point 4 (room 7).
As you can see on the following image also these chimneys and their platforms fit exactly within the slope. - a third prove.

Image


The front side, towards the seashore, remains uncertain
I have chosen a larger inclined surface because of the relatively steep gradient of the hillslope in front of the bunker

view from above
Image

view from below
Image

Never reported before one can see that all around S473 the walls had been filled up and reinforced by the concrete scrap coming from the „Portalkran“ runways., and then covered by sand.

Image

all described shapes covered by "sand" do not look so bad
Image

in comparison to the original
Image


at least, changing the topic, a very technical view of part of the ammunition transport

Image

and here a more atmospheric picture, the view from one of the bunks in the hallway (room 5) to the “Kriegsmarine T5” entrance door.

Image



Jürgen Strecker, (juestr) 7.11.2023
Last edited by juestr on 14 Nov 2023 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by robin-stahlbeton » 13 Nov 2023 19:36

Hello Jürgen,

I must admit, very impressive !

Rgds,

Robin

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 13 Nov 2023 20:09

Chapeau Jürgen

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by wimve » 13 Nov 2023 20:33

Chapeau indeed !
Impressive 3D model also.
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by AvB » 13 Nov 2023 22:12

Very very nice work Jürgen! One if the most unique indepth researches in the Atlantikwall. We have only a small clue of these technical installations, and this model gives insight!

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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by Heim62 » 14 Nov 2023 17:30

Very impressive. You did a very good work Jürgen !

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