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- Joined: 05 Apr 2021 19:55
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i recently decided that i will try to come back to my "dream" project from primary school - to build 1/72 scale diorama of D-1 exit from Omaha (near Vierville). Obviously, project immediately became to big for me as a child so i've never even start my diorama. However through the years I made some models which can be useful for this project, like landing crafts (LCVPs, LCMs, DUKWs, and even LCT), few Shermans (deep wading and DD also), and many more Normandy themed vehicles and planes (maybe i will manage to make some others Normandy themed dioramas)
But, back to the topic, my biggest problem are bunkers, which i want to make mostly myself (based on the schemes) from styrofoam. Till now i have two:
- hand made R677 type bunker - i made it because Italeri bunker has the protection wall on the wrong side for my D-1 WN72 R677, so i made mirror reflection of Italeri one
- Italeri coastal defence bunker - as i mentioned above i've bought this only to create mirror reflection. However recently i found out that R677 is quite similar to the R612 (even Italeri use both number depends of box).
So the Idea is to make diorama from Wn70 to Wn73 elements (at least pak 97/38 casamate). Obviously, because my attic is not big enough i'd like to "fake" a bit distances, to avoid to much boring empty field - it concerns especially distance between WN 70 and WN 71, and inland positions of the 352 division artillery.
Sorry for this a bit to long introduction, my intention was to made you interested in this project (at least i tried ), now i'd like to ask you same questions/topics id like to discus:
1) WN 70 id like to adopt this Italeri coastal defence bunker as the R612 which was there. According to the R612 plans i found this sea fire protection wall "leg" starts a bit further to the side from embrasure than in 677 (which i think this Italeri bunker really is). But as i found this bunker didn't even has roof, but has branches camouflage on the top instead, which i hope i can use to "hide" this wrong position of the sea fire protection "leg".
Also, from aerial photo it also looks like the Italeri one.
According to my research inside of this R612 i should put FK 16 75 mm gun?
As i found In WN 70, should be also two open emplacements, one for FK 16 75 mm gun, and second for 20 mm flak? Do you know the type(maybe scheme or measures of them?
Same question is about tobruks, according to this web http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikw ... pretre.php# , there should be 4 tobruks. Do you know type of them, are they for MG's or mortars?
Interesting thing presented on this web is the photo with tobruk which looks like the one for the tank turret, are the any evidences about this one?
2) WN 71, according to mentioned web http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikw ... ur_mer.php# there are:
- two tobruks for MG, the guy from this web indicated them as Ic116 Tobruk.
- two double embrasures MG's bunker, one "L" shape and the second one with embrasures looking opposite directions - do you know the type of those two bunkers (and hopefully can upload some plans or measures)
3) WN 72, this one is my nightmare. According to this http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikw ... p_wn72.php there were:
A) The R677 with pak 43, this one i made (but never fully finished with weathering) as a high(or mid) school kid, after my visit in Vierville.
However when i was reading topics on this forum i've started to thinking that maybe i should "correct it". I've started to be worry especially after i saw this model http://xtt.freeboxos.fr/dev2000/WebPage ... _akluaqXka
A1) Firstly when i was in Vierville i saw that this R677 doesn't have those rear triangle concrete "ears" (sorry i don't know the exact name of this part), which i saw on every plan of it. So I decided to "cut" them from my model. Now i see that this model from PN sud modelisme has one rear triangle on the see side of bunker.
A2) Another thing is this sea fire protection wall, nowadays R677 has triangle shape, but on the mentioned model and the archives photos it has stairs-like shape, was it the part of this "hotel camouflage"?
A3) Back of the bunker; on the mentioned model i've seen this sea fire protection wall of the entrance, which i've never seen on any plans, was it really like this?
A4) Overall shape; According to the schemes, the typical R677 should have irregular hexagon shape, with rectangular walls of the back half, and narrowing walls going to the embrasure wall in the front half. However this Vierville R677 has really square shape.
Because of all above i'd like to ask you if you have any plans of Vierville R677?
A5) Hotel camouflage - i've seen the picture after capturing of the bunker. On the top are just small ruins of the hotel. Was it like this from the beginning, or it was actually a full building on the top of the bunker?
B) This weird Doppelschartenstand casemate for 5 cm KWK. I've spent few days searching (on this forum and recommended webs) for the type and schemes for this one, but with no result. I've found something similar (even with the schemes) in the topic about Doppelschartenstand, but i think the one in Vierville is different.
Again i found some model made by PN Modelismo, so i believe some schemes of this bunker are available if the made to found it.
Can you, please help me to find what type of Doppelschartenstand it is, and some schemes of it?
Another thing about this one is the tobruk FT-17 turret, beside mentioned above bunker, are they any evidences that his turret actually was mounted in place before D-day?
(Actually im still thinking, that even if tobruk was empty, maybe i should place this turret there, even if it didn't came in tame; you know just symbolic, to highlight that Germans used this kind of construction in the AW).
C) Double machine gun embrasure; according to this web http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikw ... p_wn72.php it was there and it was "L" shape. Again i'd like to ask for your help with finding schemes, or measures of this one. Was it actually the same (or rather mirror reflection) as the "L" shape from WN71?
4) WN 73, from this place i'd like to create two positions (or maybe three with the mortar Ic125 tobruk (about which i found nice topic with plans here), but again i will have to fake the distance)
A) When i visited the place i've seen this embrasure for pak 97/38 and nowadays it looks basically like a rectangular hole in the cliff. Was it some special type of bunker which has any available plans, or in fact it was just an example of Todt creativity?
B) The observation point, on the map from mentioned web it's positioned somewhere between Wn73 and 72, to be honest i didn't spot this place when i was in Vierville. Do you guys have any idea what construction could it be?
5) Field artillery of 352 ID. I know it may be controversial, because of the distance which i will have to fake (like a lot ) but i think it will be nice to "mention" this artillery on the diorama.
So far, from different sources, also from this forum i found that for sure i can place:
- batteries of 4 S.Fh 18 150 mm (from Asnieres-en-Bessin)
- batteries of 4 Lefh 18 105 mm (as i found there were few batteries of those guns in the area, but i didn't decide which one i want to place on diorama)
And now the questions
- In the topics about the 352 division i found that each regiment should have 2 S.Ig 33 150 mm howitzers and 6 leig 18 75 mm guns, but despite those information w couldn't find where 916 regiment placed those guns. Were any of them somewhere behind D-1 exit?
This question is really important because the only s.ig 33 in 1/72 are from s-models from China, so i need to plan them earlier
- In the topic about Nebelwerfers at Omaha, the last post says that some wurfgerat (40 or 41?) where behind WN 69. I know it's quite far from my D-1 exit, but i was consider if maybe it will be ok to place them in the south-east corner of the diorama.
BTW are they any traces for use of the Wurfrahmen 40 and Nebelwerfer 41 in the US sector?
Thank you all in advance, and sorry for so many questions (i've been searching for a while and red a lot of interesting post here, but unfortunately i couldn't find answers)
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American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Four meters are a bit too much, that's why i was thinking about faking distances, and made diorama around 2x2 maybe a bit more.
But probably you are right i should take some smaller section of D-1 for one diorama. Initially i wanted to do just this valley climbing up to Vierville, with WN 71 and WN 72 double embrasure MG bunkers, R677 and this double embrasure for 5 cm KWK.
Idea for WN 70 came when i realized that my Italeri bunker can be used as R612 in construction, but maybe its better to do another diorama about this WN, especially, that it was conquered quite early in this day, around 9/10, so i could avoid making another sea, beach and so on.
About events around D-1, i was also thinking about blowing up the AT wall, mainly because of the tide. I don't have space to do beach in its widest form early morning, so i was thinking about some later moments. If i remember good, from Ambrose D-Day, the wall was blown up sth around 11 or 12?
Anyway whatever i will decide i still have no idea about measures of this Doppelschartenstand for 5 cm kwk. To be honest this was the main reason i decided to start this topic.
Yesterday i found some scheme for Doppelschartenstand for MG's, which i think is the one i need for WN 71, but i will be grateful if you can confirm that. [edit - fake one]
The WN 72 Doppelschartenstand for MG's is the same but mirror reflection?
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- Joined: 05 Apr 2021 19:55
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thanks for your help.
You guys did an amazing job.
Thanks for warning about this plan i've found. I deleted it already from forum to prevent spreading fake news.
I will be very grateful for plans/information about:
WN 70 - Two open, ring shaped, emplacements.
WN 70 - Tobruks, are they all Ic116 for Mg's, like those from WN71, or different?
WN 71 - according, to the info from the http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikw ... ur_mer.php there should be also second double embrasures for MG's bunker, different from the one you posted (this is the second, more inland one). Have you seen, and maybe measured this second one?
WN71 - this is the "storage" bunker from WN 71?
WN 72 - The double LAG with tankturret. As i understand, you measured it, so i will wait, and will be very grateful if you will find some time to draw it.
WN 72 - R677, if some of you have plans for this exact one from Vierville, i will try to use them to fix my old model.
Wn 73 - observation bunker between pak garage and WN 72.
WN 73 - am i right that mortar tobruk nr 5 is more to the east than nr 6?
BTW. on your plans I've seen "plannumbers", are they based on some map from wartime, or you guys have your own map?
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He's an artist, and this piece of work is from the German perspective overlooking WN72 from the machine gun position high on the hill. It's very atmospheric and shows the layout from an angle we don't often see. The MG position is unusual ( pretty much a trench and a concrete screen) and it's construction is described. https://youtu.be/v7oVOdUQO18
His "Dog One" piece is from the beach towards the R677, and it shows the work carried out by the Germans to disguise the bunker. You can make out the none Regelbau bunker ( garage) on the hillside containing the Pak 97/38.
There are obviously other examples of the Pak 38 bunker, and the one at WN90 Gefosse-Fontenay la Dune is similar and provides an idea of what the somewhat modified bunker/ shelter on Omaha beach looked like.
Finally, I'd plug Steven Zaloga's book The Devil's Garden. His grandfather Sgt Frank Zaloga landed
there on D-Day and the subject is clearly close to his heart.
PS I've completed the 8.8cm bunker for 15mm wargaming and so have played with the dimensions in order to suit the game. I've started the 5cm Pak bunker and I've a Renault turret with a machine gun to mount on it. It is, after all, for playing a game of soldiers. There are other gamers who've completed several of the WN positions from Omaha. They are gaming pieces, and the reduced ground scale is very obvious. http://jpwargamingplace.blogspot.com/20 ... wn-72.html