Bunker ID?

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Aufklarung
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Bunker ID?

Post by Aufklarung » 06 Jul 2003 01:20

I'm guessing Erik will be the one to ask but it's an open question.
I got a book from the wife the other day titled D-Day The First 24 Hoursby Will Fowler(Brown Books 2003). In it I noticed number of errors in the photos but this one I have no answer to. The caption says it's a MG bunker on the Atlantic wall but that doesn't sit right with me. Now, I'm no bunker expert but the thing doesn't look German and the terrain doesn't look coastal. If I had to guess, I'd say French on the Maginot line. Am I wrong? Is Mr Fowler wrong?
Just being curious and I know Erik can probably shed some more light on this.
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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 06 Jul 2003 02:35

Hello!

In my oppinion this is definately a part of the french Magino line with some 8,8 "scratches".

\Christoph

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 06 Jul 2003 03:55

Hi Christoph
I too think it's Maginot Line but the damage maybe wasn't done by the Germans in '40 but by the Amis in '44. The photo is colour and the credit is US Nat Archives. This leads me to believe it may also be around the Seigfried Line somewhere. There were many errors in the book.
Of course it could be as it says and be German from the Atlantic wall. I do not know. I await a bunker expert. :wink:

regards
A :)

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 06 Jul 2003 04:28

I have a color foto from 1940 in my collection (German PK) which shows the same type of cupola at the Maginot line.

\Christoph

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Dan Mouritzsen
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Sechsschartenturm.

Post by Dan Mouritzsen » 06 Jul 2003 08:03

Hi

The Germans had the same type of panzer turrets spread all over the Atlantic wall. It looks like a Sechsschartenturm 20P7 or a 35P8 to me. There exist a lot of pictures from Zitadelle St. Malo were the Americans had done some serious shooting test on some of these turrets.

Take a look at: http://www.atlantikwall.net/pictures/vi ... usee_2.jpg for a picture of one.

Regards

Dan Mouritzsen

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 06 Jul 2003 11:52

I agree with Dan M.
This is definately a German sechsschartenturm.
They were widely used in the Westwall and several of the turrets I have visited there has the same kind of battledamage as this one.

It also has the Zeiss optics, so I would rate this as a early production model, which again fits well for the westwall....But not for sure, there are allways exeptions!

These copulars are often found in hillsides behind the first frontline. In several places I have visited, this copular often defends the backside of batteries, airports or strongpoints. I think 1 Km from the coastline is not unusual.

Christoph:
Could you please post this photo?
These turrets are German production, so this really sound strange!
Sure that there couldn`t be a few shots from the Westwall among them???


Erik E

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 06 Jul 2003 14:05

Thank you Cristoph
Thank you Dan M
Thank you Erik

The pic Dan posted looks to be a different type from the pic I put up. Perhaps it's so because it's not buried but there are some differences to me. The holes above the ports are of a different shape and the size seems to be different. This could be because there is no real reference of scale in my photo; I'm not sure. Also there appear to be no horns or lifting lugs in the first pic; perhaps they're buried.

I too would like to see the pic Christoph mentioned.

regards
A :)

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 06 Jul 2003 20:03

The photo Dan posted is exactly the same, but it`s bunker is missing......

Here is one of the turrets from the Westwall I mentioned:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... t=attacked

Erik

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 06 Jul 2003 20:16

Hi Erik
Exactly the same? Really? I see the vents(?) above the MG appetures in Dan Ms pic as being a cross shape and the ones in the pic I posted more circular. I don't know if that is due to the earlier or later production of the variants. Is it possible that these could have been moved from the Westwall to the Atlantic wall by the Germans prior to D-Day?

regards
A :)

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 06 Jul 2003 20:29

The "circular hole" is for the Zeiss optics, while the "cross" is for the later Busch optics with wider angle of view. The turret itself is the same, but from different production dates. I have never heard of any copulars getting moved, as the total weight nearly reach 80 tonnes! Imagine this burried in 2 metres of concrete........

There were several copulars placed in the Atlantikwall from 1942 to 1944, but if they were moved from the westwall, or were "on stock" is impossible to answer........ As you know, the Westwall wasn`t near to complete when France surrendered, so it would be reasonable to think that several copulars never reached their positions, and were put "on stock". A good example is found on a beach a couple of Km`s from here.
There are one 3-schartenturm from 1936, and 2 6-schartenturme from 1938.! all of them installed in 1943.

I think the conclution must be that it could be anywhere!
The only way to solve it, is if the turret is still there :)

Regards
Erik E

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 06 Jul 2003 20:33

Thanx Erik.
As usual your explanation and knowledge are most satisfying.
Have a good day (well, evening now :D )

regards
A :)

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 07 Jul 2003 07:24

Hello fellows!

I wrote the above from work and I just look at the foto I meant and it looks totally different as I had it in my mind. Sorry to have caused curiosity and confusion. :oops:


Image

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 07 Jul 2003 11:46

Hi Cristoph
Playing when you should have been working, eh!!?? :wink:
No apologies necessary to me. Thanx for the pic. I like seeing these kind of photos. :D
I do have some snaps from the visit I took as a lad to the Maginot line in the late 70's but would have to really dig for them. I'll try and get them posted this week.

regards
A :)

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