4,7 cm L/52

[Shell Case Collector]

Hi all,

First post on this super informative forum! I am a former shell case collector that still maintains an identification list and I recently found proof of 2 shell cases currently not identified. I am looking for a 4,7 cm Rheinmetall L/52 gun.

The 2 shell cases are unique in the sense that their rim diameter is 70 mm and all 4,7 cm cases known to me deviate. Both are German made, both are intended for export.

Case 1: Dated 1904, manufacturer Patronenfabrik Karlsruhe, measures 47x385R70. No German acceptance marks, hence export.

Case 2: Dated 1940, manufacturer Polte, has Rheinmetall logos hence for a Rheinmetall gun. Unfortunately cut down, but also a rim diameter of 70 mm. No German acceptance marks, hence export. Head stamp 4,7 cm L/52.

Based on the head stamp and very late export year of case 2 I suspect the cases are intended for Turkey (I have seen 15 cm K39 L/55 German made export cases for Turkey that resemble the layout). I also thought of maybe the very rare 4,7 cm Rheinmetall PAK for The Netherlands but the head stamp layout does not fit the Dutch system at all. Based on the shape of the cases and years I suspect navy/coastal (if both cases are for the same gun) but case 2 could also be from an anti-tank piece (if both are different cases but I do not think so).

My best guess today is both cases are for the same Turkish naval/coastal gun.

Does anybody know of a 4,7 cm L/52 gun? I looked hard on this forum and other references but 0 hits so far.

[Zünder]

Got pictures ?

[tom!]

Hi.

There is an entry for a 4,7 cm Pak Rheinmetall in the german "Kennblätter fremden Geräts No. 50/4: AT-Guns" under "4,7 cm Pak 188 (h)". This gun was captured during the surrender of the Netherlands in May 1940 but it seems that Rheinmetall bought a licence for a serial production prior to 1940. The guns were used by Wehrmacht units for second line duties until surrender.

There is a pic of this gun being mounted on a Bren Universal Carrier:

47 mm pak 188 h Bren Carrier.jpg

Yours

tom!

[Shell Case Collector]

Here an image of the shell case head stamp.

4,7 cm L52.jpg

[Shell Case Collector]

As for the 4,7 cm PAK Rheinmetall I have not been able to find anything on the ammunition. I did hear from the owner of the case it was found at a scrap yard in The Netherlands.

[jopaerya]

Hello Shell Case Collector

My best guess is the shell is from the Dutch "Kanon van 5 cm" the actual size is 4.7 cm L/50
These guns were made by HIH Siderius and that was a part of the firm Rheinmetall ??

Regards Jos

[Shell Case Collector]

Hi Jos,

I see a lot of mismatch here. First, "we" would not buy ammunition from Polte but make it ourselves (Hembrug) and it would have a typical Dutch layout. Second, the case clearly mentions L/52. Third, the rim diameter does not match any known Dutch gun except maybe the 4,7 cm PAK Rheinmetall as I have no idea how the munition looked like.

[jbroshot]

The attached pages from Dienstvorschrift 435 1 Handbuch Die Munition Der Deutschen Geschutze Und Werfer 28 12 40 might be of some help.

Pages from Dienstvorschrift 435 1 Handbuch Die Munition der deutschen Geschutze und Werfer 28 12 1940.pdf

The entire manual can be downloaded from Internet Archive

https://archive.org/details/dienstvorsc ... er28121940

[Shell Case Collector]

Hi all,

Thanks for trying to help but the examples given do not match the dimensions of the case I show.

Maybe it helps by stating what it is not as all cases below have a rim diameter smaller or larger than 70 mm. I left out some more exotic cases I know of, but in general you can assume none of the generally known guns fits the dimensions of the shown case.

As for the 4,7 cm PAK Rheinmetall, maybe this is a good reason to visit the Dutch National Archives some time, there must be some proof there.

- 47 mm Bohler (NL, AT, IT) --> 56 mm
- 47 mm 3 Pr Hotchkiss(GB, RU) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm C/47 (BE) --> 63 mm
- 47 mm Type 1 (JP) --> 71,5 mm
- 47 mm Nordenfelt (GB) --> 59 mm
- 47 mm M41 (CH) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm 3 pounder 2 CWT (GB) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm 3 Pr QF Hotchkiss (FR, GB, IT) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm Mle 1902 and 1937 (FR) --> 76 mm
- 47 mm L/44 (AT-HU) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm Nordenfelt L/50 (GB) --> 76 mm
- 47 mm Skoda vz. 36/M36 (CZ, DE) --> 64 mm
- 47 mm Vickers (GB) --> 68 mm