88 on the east

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filuhzwawy
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88 on the east

Post by filuhzwawy » 01 Oct 2003 22:21

does anyone have specfic info about the producion of 88 in ther reich and how many were directed to the eastern front to fight tanks and how many to the west to fight allied aircraft - each year?

thanks!

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 01 Oct 2003 23:46

Hello!

It is impossible to answer your question about the fronts as the guns were issued to different AA-units, AT-units, Heer, Luftwaffe, Waffen-SS and these were transferred from here to here during the war.

Anyway I can give you the production numbers:

Luftwaffe 88mm Flak 18, 36, 38
1939: 183 1940: 1130 1941: 1872 1942: 2876 1943: 4416 1944: 1933 1945: 715

Heer 88mm Flak 18 and 36
1941: 126 1942: 176 1943: 296 1944: 549 1945: 23

88mm Pak 43/41
1944: 1152 1945: 251

88mm Pak 434
1943: 6 1944: 1766 1945: 326

\Christoph

Paul Lakowski
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Post by Paul Lakowski » 02 Oct 2003 00:41

Christoph Awender wrote:Hello!

It is impossible to answer your question about the fronts as the guns were issued to different AA-units, AT-units, Heer, Luftwaffe, Waffen-SS and these were transferred from here to here during the war.

Anyway I can give you the production numbers:

Luftwaffe 88mm Flak 18, 36, 38
1939: 183 1940: 1130 1941: 1872 1942: 2876 1943: 4416 1944: 1933 1945: 715

Heer 88mm Flak 18 and 36
1941: 126 1942: 176 1943: 296 1944: 549 1945: 23

88mm Pak 43/41
1944: 1152 1945: 251

88mm Pak 434
1943: 6 1944: 1766 1945: 326

\Christoph


Greenhill books "German Order of Battle 1944",[1994] reports the following,

22 Flak Divisions [~ 8bn+ searchlight] and 88 Motorised flak Rgt [~ 2bn + searchlights] & 44 motorized Flak Bn plus 63 Static /naval Flak Rgts and 1259 static/naval flak Bn

So thats roughly 400 motorized flak and 1400 static flak Bn.So for every motorized flak there was 3 static flak.

All the battalions that were attached to the regimental level [3 per division] were mixed battalions with three Heavy batteries [88/105mm AAA] and two light batteries [20-37mm AAA].

all independant battalions are static [except 16] and there are identified the following number of heavy bn @ 122 each with 4 hvy batteries [88-105mm & 16 guns?].There are ~ 160 light battalions [ 4 x 20-37mm batteries , 16 guns?There are also 76 bn either Naval ,Railway or balloon battalions...the rest are supposed to be mixed battalions [3 hvy batteries and 2 light batteries?].

FRom what I can read , flak divisions were attached to armies and Rgts were attached to Korps with motorized battalions going to motorized divisions. Generally the static units were for homeland defence ?
Last edited by Paul Lakowski on 05 Oct 2003 19:15, edited 2 times in total.

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 02 Oct 2003 01:04

hi just an interesting photo :) http://www.tracks-n-troops.com

Image

David

Paul Lakowski
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Post by Paul Lakowski » 02 Oct 2003 04:03

OK follow up;

Rothburst "Battle for France" [1990], on pp 143 he reports standard PzKorps TOE [1940] included a flak battalion per division and a Luftwaffe Flak corps attached. This is almost the same as the Flak Division with three Rgts [each with 3 x hvy (4 x 88 + 6 x37+ 3 x 20) and 2 x med batteries (9 x 37)] plus one light flak Bn [12 x 20mm] and two Hvy flak [as above].

But the actual org differed...on pp 151-154 Pz Grup Von Kleist has
a flak Rgt with one HVy , MEd & Lt battalions under XIX Pz Korps
a flak Bn under XLI Pz Korps control
a Flak Corps with 3 flak Rgts [ 3 med and 1 Lt Bn]and a Hvy and Light flak bn attached at the army level.

Mitchams "Men of the Luftwaffe" 1988, reports that in 1943 only 6 of the 22 flak divisions were in Russia,[pp228]. So clearly there had been a shift in the army TOE by mid war....most likely this is where the independent motorized regiments came into existance. By 1944 the germans had 96 Korps and 32 Armies [onpaper] ,so if you divide the motorized battalions [~ 400] by this total you get roughly one flak Rgt per Korps and one hvy motorized flak bn per army....not sure but I don't think the flak bn attached to Mobile & Para divisions are included in this total?

Ivan Hoggs "Anti Aircraft , A history of Air Defence" 1978, reports the following on pp 169
AAA deployed in "other than western front"
1942 Hvy flak 2052
1942 Light Flak 5759

1943 Hvy flak 3693
1943 Light Flak 7789

1944 Hvy flak 4168
1944 Light Flak 8037

filuhzwawy
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Post by filuhzwawy » 02 Oct 2003 07:37

thanks for the info. I dont know why you say its impossible. I need only rough estimates - for ex. how many 88 did busch have during bagration? if they could estimate how many tigers or panthers were issued to each front then they could count 88 as weel. am I wrong? Anyway i am very greatful for your reply.

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Oct 2003 09:52

filuhzwawy wrote:thanks for the info. I dont know why you say its impossible. I need only rough estimates - for ex. how many 88 did busch have during bagration? if they could estimate how many tigers or panthers were issued to each front then they could count 88 as weel. am I wrong? Anyway i am very greatful for your reply.


Yes if you would have asked this way!! Your question was how many 88´s were directed to the east and west each year. For some picked operations it is of course possible to tell. And I don´t give estimated figures because they can be way wrong if you forget something to include in your estimation. All clear filuhzwawy?
Also the excellent posts of Paul don´t include the guns used in AT-role in Panzerjäger-units.

\Christoph

filuhzwawy
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Post by filuhzwawy » 05 Oct 2003 18:45

could you point me to a site which describes the 88s well. thanks!

filuhzwawy
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Post by filuhzwawy » 06 Oct 2003 21:58

So can anyone tell me the difference between theses four? and in what ways were they better from their counterparts?

Luftwaffe 88mm Flak 18, 36, 38
Heer 88mm Flak 18 and 36
88mm Pak 43/41
88mm Pak 434

thanks

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