2.5cm KwK 121(f) (25mm SA35)

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David Lehmann
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2.5cm KwK 121(f) (25mm SA35)

Post by David Lehmann » 08 Oct 2003 01:19

Hello,

I am looking for info about the 2.5cm KwK 121(f) (the 25mm SA35 in French use) but I can't find any. Perhaps one of the German specialist will know about the KwK 121(f) ?

It is a shortened version of the 25mm SA-L Mle1934 L/72 (2.5cm Pak 112(f) L/72) (the Pak113(f) being the L/77 version) but I can't find its barrel length ... perhaps L/53 or L/40. Thanks for help.

David

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 08 Oct 2003 15:31

Hallo!

I don`t know the exact answer to your question, but maybe this is of some help?

2,5cm pak 112(f) = Frz 34 SA
2,5cm pak 113(f) = Frz 37 SA-L

2,5cm KwK 121(f) = Frz 35 SA-Raccourci

All 3 guns had the same ammunition, but the KwK could also use "Charge forte".

I have got several pages of information about all the ammunition types, penetrating records+++, but sadly, not much is mentioned about the guns!

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 08 Oct 2003 17:44

I was looking for then length of the barrel of the shortened version.

- SA34 : L/72
- SA-L 37 : L/77
- SA35 : L/? .... I think it is L/53 but not sure ...

And I don't know on which vehicle the SA35 was used .... the Panhard P178 (PSW 204(f)) uses the SA34 gun I think.

Could you tell me about the penetration records ?
max penetration /0° at 0m
and penetration /30° at 400m

(if possible on which armor it was tested like 260 BHN RHA).

David

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 08 Oct 2003 18:40

Here are the notes about the test:

Panzerplatte festigheit 120Kg mm2

100 meters = 47mm @ 90°
500 meters = 40mm @ 90°
1000 meters = 30mm @ 90°

100 meters = 35mm @ 60°
500 meters = 30mm @ 60°
1000 meters = 20mm @ 60°

100 meters = 18mm @ 45°
500 meters = 16mm @ 45°
1000 meters = 15mm @ 45°

The test was carried out 1/8-1941 with a 2,5cm KwK 121(f) by HWA.
V/o Measured to 950 M/s using the ammunition:

2,5cm Panzergranatpatrone 122(f) mit überladung
Ex: Cartouche de 25mm modèle 1934 à balle perforante(Charge forte)



As far as I know, if it was used on a vechicle, it would be called KwK, so if I`m right, the 121(f) was in use on the PSW 204(f)!

Erik E

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 08 Oct 2003 19:14

Well, thanks but that's strange since I am pretty sure that the 25mm L/72 was used on the AMR-35 ZT2 and ZT3, PSW 204(f) as well as in Pak configuration .... that's why I don't know where the SA35 was used.

Would you perhaps have info about following shells ?

- Pzgr 114(f), another 2.5cm shell if I am right (25x194R mm)

- Pzgr 144(f), a 3.7cm shell (37x94R mm I guess)

- Pzgr 146(f), a 3.7cm shell (37x149R mm I guess)

- Pzgr 146(f), a 4.7cm shell (47x193R m I guess)

Many Thanks,

David

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 08 Oct 2003 23:17

My list only covers those below 3,6cm, so I only have this:

Pzgr 114(f), another 2.5cm shell if I am right (25x194R mm)


2,5cm Panzergranatpatrone 114(f)
Ex: Cartouche de 25mm Modèle 1934 a balle perforante.
(My papers say 25x193)

Actually the same shell as 122(f), but with normal charge, and then used with Pak 112 & 113(f)

Some datas:

-Patrone:
Gewicht = 860G
länge = 263mm

-Geschoß:
Tombakmantel mit gehärtetem stahlkern
Gewicht = 320G
länge = 109mm

-Stahlkern:
Gewicht = 210G
länge = 89mm

-Hülse:
Messinghülse mit rand und zundschraube
Gewicht = 400G
länge = 193mm

-Pulver:
Kurzes röhren-pulver (2,3 Øx 4,5)
ladung 137G

-Anfangsgewschwindigheit:
920 M/sec

-Durchslagsleistung:
Wie Balle perforante (Charge forte) aus Kw.K verschossen

-Kennzeichnung:
Geschoß mit schwartzer spitze

-Verwendung:
Zur bekämpfung von panzerkampfwagen

-Waffen:
2,5cm pak112(f)
2,5cm pak113(f)

In addition these pak gun also used:
2,5cm 115(f), 116(f), 117(f) & 118(f)

While the KwK used:
122(f), 123(f), 124(f) & 125(f)

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 09 Oct 2003 00:01

Erik E wrote:In addition these pak gun also used:
2,5cm 115(f), 116(f), 117(f) & 118(f)

While the KwK used:
122(f), 123(f), 124(f) & 125(f)


Well ... this time I am totally lost :lol:
impossible to find the original French ammo there aren't such many different :)

About the caliber, I found on http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ammotable3.htm
That it was a 25x194R for the WW2 Hotchkiss Mle 1934 AT

Regards,

David

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MK108
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Cool :-)

Post by MK108 » 09 Oct 2003 16:01

Bonjour,
25 shortened mod 35 for tank use same ammunition than SA34 and 37
Source : Conférence sur les munitions 1940 Bourges
Cheers, Dan
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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 09 Oct 2003 17:57

Oh, very nice Dan thank you !

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 09 Oct 2003 17:58

impossible to find the original French ammo there aren't such many different


Its too much to writ a detailed description of all these, but here are all the ex-French names!

Pak:

2,5cm Pzgr patr. 114(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle perforante.

2,5cm Pzgr patr L`spur. 115(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle traceuse perforante.

2,5cm Pzgr patr L`spur. 116(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle traceuse perforante. (Different colour than 115(f)

2,5cm Pzgr patr. Ub 117(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle ordinaire

2,5cm Pzgr patr. ub 118(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle à portèe reduite

KWK:

2,5cm Pzgr patr. (m Uberldg) 122(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle perforante.(Charge forte)

2,5cm Pzgr patr. L`spur (m Uberldg) 123(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle traceuse perforante.(Charge forte)

2,5cm Pzgr patr. L`spur (m Uberldg) 124(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle traceuse perforante.(Charge forte) (Different colour than 123(f)

2,5cm ub patr. (m uberldg) 125(f) = Cart. de 25mm Mle 1934 à balle à portèe reduite (Charge forte)


Erik E

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 09 Oct 2003 18:08

Many thanks Erik !

I just wonder what could be the use of the "reduced range" (portée réduite) ammo. Any idea ?

David

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 09 Oct 2003 18:19

It is training ammunition with reduced range.
The charge was reduced by 1/3, and the grenade was pure sttel, with a flat nose.

Erik

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David Lehmann
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Post by David Lehmann » 09 Oct 2003 18:48

Thanks again :)

In "charge forte" is the powder charge doubled ?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Oct 2003 19:20

I happen to own a French 2.5cm PaK cartridge case.
At the base there are the BOTH type base markings as at the MK 108 drawing:
stamped: at the pic, RS 2 39 C at my case, SF 1 40 I
painted: at the pic, ECP-18-18-3-39 and H 20-4-35-SL at my case, SF 39. 30 5 40 and H 25. 21. 39 SL
At the circle around primer also: M.G.M and 73 1940

Regards, Juha

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MK108
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Post by MK108 » 09 Oct 2003 20:10

RS 2 39 C is Rennes Factory 2 lot 1939 C Castelsarrazin (métal furniture)
SF 1 10 I is Société Française de munitions 1 lot 1940 I (Issy-les-moulineaux)
ECP is Ecole centrale pyrotechnie de Bourges
H certainly for Hotchkiss Paris, i'm no sure, sometimes H is for Le Havre
but i dont think is for now ...
SL, no remenber
MGM is Manufacture Générale de Munition

Best regards, Dan

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