ID Artillery Piece?

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
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bmk1st
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Post by bmk1st » 06 Nov 2003 15:29

Great. Orok, I guess we solved the mystery today. :D

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Orok
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Post by Orok » 06 Nov 2003 15:32

bmk1st wrote:Great. Orok, I guess we solved the mystery today. :D


Yes Thanks everybody! :lol:

Best Regards!

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 07 Nov 2003 09:11

luno wrote:Offtopic did you know that the German company Krupp helped Bofors building the 75mm AA gun and after that Krupp went back to Germany and build the famous 88mm Flak
regards
Olof


The matter has been discussed earlier in this forum. This has been mentioned in numerous books and websites. However, it seems possible that this information is partly inaccurate. What I remember sometime not long ago some-one posted (naming the Krupp employees and their jobs at Bofors, as their number was very small) showing that they were not really in job positions at Bofors to influence the AA-gun design manufactured there. However that both Krupp 75-mm (rare one) and 88-mm AA-gun designs of 1930's were heavily based to latest Bofors 75-mm AA-guns seems correct.

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 07 Nov 2003 09:36

Orok wrote:
bmk1st wrote:Great. Orok, I guess we solved the mystery today. :D


Yes Thanks everybody! :lol:

Best Regards!


Not so fast :wink: I think also that it is 80-mm Hungarian Bofors (the recoil systems under and over the barrel look very similar in two photos), but I think it has not been modified. The wheels under the gun in the first picture look a lot like like wheeled axle, which was installed under the actual gun for transporting it. Most heavy AA-guns of that time had these for transporting them. For this the gun was first removed from its usual mount, which was transported seperately. Once the gun was in its next fire-position it was removed from axle and installed back to its usual mount.

Attached are pictures of two such axles, which had been used by Finnish Army with AA-guns. Photo taken at Finnish AA-Museum (Ilmatorjuntamuseo).
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Orok
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Post by Orok » 07 Nov 2003 15:28

JTV wrote:Not so fast :wink: I think also that it is 80-mm Hungarian Bofors (the recoil systems under and over the barrel look very similar in two photos), but I think it has not been modified. The wheels under the gun in the first picture look a lot like like wheeled axle, which was installed under the actual gun for transporting it. Most heavy AA-guns of that time had these for transporting them. For this the gun was first removed from its usual mount, which was transported seperately. Once the gun was in its next fire-position it was removed from axle and installed back to its usual mount.

Attached are pictures of two such axles, which had been used by Finnish Army with AA-guns. Photo taken at Finnish AA-Museum (Ilmatorjuntamuseo).


Hi JTV,

Thanks for your very informative post and nice picture.

My main inquiry was whether this particular gun was 75mm or 80mm. Because the original photo caption said it was 75mm, but my other sources all said the Hungarians had some 80mm guns, but no 75mm Bofors guns. I think this mystery has been solved as we all agree that this gun was actually 80mm. :lol:

As to whether this gun had been converted from AA to AT function, I haven't done any research, so I haven't published any opinion. Our good friend Olof firmly believes that this gun had been converted for AT purpose, I don't know his exact basis for this claim. But I believe both your and Olof's opinions are valid. I am not in a position to judge until I have time to do some further research.

Thanks again and my Best Regards!

map358
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Re: ID Artillery Piece?

Post by map358 » 07 Nov 2003 18:31

Orok wrote:This is a picture of Hungarian soldiers manhandling a gun for the defence of Budapest. Can anyone ID the gun?


Hi Orok

The recoil mechanism clearly shows that it's a Bofors gun.
It's actually an ordinary Bofors AA-gun of the first generation, in travelling position.
The barrel was flipped uppside down for transportation and you can see the elevating arcs at the top of the gun.

Don't know about the calibre, you could have it in 75mm, 76,2mm or 80mm. The name of the gun was 75 mm L/51, 76,2 mm L/51 or 80 mm L/51 respectively.

Best
map

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Orok
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Re: ID Artillery Piece?

Post by Orok » 07 Nov 2003 18:38

map358 wrote:Hi Orok

The recoil mechanism clearly shows that it's a Bofors gun.
It's actually an ordinary Bofors AA-gun of the first generation, in travelling position.
The barrel was flipped uppside down for transportation and you can see the elevating arcs at the top of the gun.

Don't know about the calibre, you could have it in 75mm, 76,2mm or 80mm. The name of the gun was 75 mm L/51, 76,2 mm L/51 or 80 mm L/51 respectively.

Best
map


Thanks map for your input.

There has never been any doubt that the gun is a Bofors. The only uncertainty was the calibre. The original caption claims that it is 75mm, but my other sources say that the Hungarians only had 80mm Bofors in their service, not 75mm. With the help of other contributors I now believe the gun is actually an 80mm and the original caption is incorrect.

Thanks and my Best Regards!

John T
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Re: ID Artillery Piece?

Post by John T » 07 Nov 2003 23:49

map358 wrote:
Orok wrote:This is a picture of Hungarian soldiers manhandling a gun for the defence of Budapest. Can anyone ID the gun?


Hi Orok

The recoil mechanism clearly shows that it's a Bofors gun.
It's actually an ordinary Bofors AA-gun of the first generation, in travelling position.
The barrel was flipped uppside down for transportation and you can see the elevating arcs at the top of the gun.

Don't know about the calibre, you could have it in 75mm, 76,2mm or 80mm. The name of the gun was 75 mm L/51, 76,2 mm L/51 or 80 mm L/51 respectively.

Best
map



Even Steckzens book on Bofors, 600+ pages, have a photo with he caption - Hungarian 75mm AA-guns.
But the later book Bofors 350 år only mentions 80mm guns for Hungary.

So it is probably 80mm but when it comes to Bofors, you never know - they where probably the most customer oriented around at that time. Producing 75mm 76.2mm 76.5mm 80mm 88mm AA guns
And the 75mm wher made with atleast four different cases between the wars.

This photo shows Bofors guns said to be luftvärnskanon m/30 -
How you differ those from the Hungarian 80mm is beyond my capacity.
Something for JTV and MAP to Chew on :)


Cheers
/John T.
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map358
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Post by map358 » 08 Nov 2003 12:33

As far as I know you can't tell them apart from just looking at a photograph - they looked virtually the same.
I think we can assume that the later book, by Fransson, is more likely to be correct, on a mather like this. As you say, he mentions 80mm AA-guns sold to Hungary. So - if the photograph in the original post shows Hungarian soldiers it's probably a 80mm gun.

Best
map

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Orok
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Post by Orok » 08 Nov 2003 13:51

Hi map,

I totally agree with you.

I don't know about Swedish sources. But all Hungarian sources said they only had 80mm. And official Hungarian designation was given only to the 80mm but not 75mm guns. The Swedish produced many caliber versions for many countries, so I wouldn't be suprised if they occassionally got confused and made some mistake on such fine details. But the Hungarians only bought one caliber version, and they had to manufacture the amunition for the guns. So if the Hungarian offcial designation said they only had 80mm, I will believe this is reliable.

As to the photo, the soldiers are absolutely Hungarian. Look in the thread Hungarian Pictures where I've posted many pictures of Hungarian soldiers for comparison.

My Best Regards!

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