This is really some story!

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
User avatar
Erik E
Financial supporter
Posts: 4517
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 22:26
Location: Stavanger, Norway

This is really some story!

Post by Erik E » 20 Nov 2003 16:07

In 1938, the German forces dismantled a huge amount of weapons installed in fortifications. The most common was known as the "4,7cm Festungspak (t)"

In a bunker in Brezinka, one of these guns were taken. It was then shipped to Germany, possobly for use in the Westwall.
However when the building of the westwall ended, it was decided to build an Atlantikwall instead. Many of these guns found their way to Norway, including this gun from Brezinka. After the war was over, the Norwegian army used these weapons a few years before they were scrapped. A few of them were however given to a museum in Oslo. Back in the 80`s this museum traded away this gun for some Norwegian ones, and the gun was shipped back to Brezinka.
It has now gone trough heavy restaurations, and this year it was mounted back in the same casemate it stood in 1938!

Isn`t this a beauty!!


http://www.fortweb.net/photos/czech/n82gun.htm
Image

User avatar
Locke
Member
Posts: 1136
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 13:29
Location: Radovljica/Ljubljana, Slovenia

Post by Locke » 20 Nov 2003 16:24

How interesting! It was surely a long way for the gun :)

regards,
Polona

User avatar
Germania
Member
Posts: 1593
Joined: 27 Sep 2002 19:11
Location: Germany

Post by Germania » 20 Nov 2003 17:37

All looks so new like an OP!!! Nice work and good to beware history!

User avatar
LegalAssassin
Member
Posts: 353
Joined: 25 Oct 2003 17:24
Location: Kalmar, Sweden

Post by LegalAssassin » 20 Nov 2003 23:41

That is the exact gun I'm looking for! More! :p

User avatar
Erik E
Financial supporter
Posts: 4517
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 22:26
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by Erik E » 21 Nov 2003 01:02

The only one I think........ :(

But you can easily see the details I mentioned about the "Hülsengrube"
The rear tube has a device which catches the empty shell when it is ejected. It will den slide outside the bunker. Overpressure in the entire bunker will lead all the smoke from the gunpowder down the front tube, and outside! Very smart idea :)

Erik

User avatar
Redbaron1908
Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 31 Dec 2002 17:52
Location: Texas

Post by Redbaron1908 » 21 Nov 2003 01:16

Hello,

Does anyone know how many of the parts are original of this weapon?

User avatar
De Ruyter
Member
Posts: 177
Joined: 27 Jun 2003 21:08
Location: Sweden

machine gun?????!!!

Post by De Ruyter » 21 Nov 2003 22:41

Hi there Erik E!

It sure looks to me like there is a machine gun mounted above the "main gun". Isn't that a "string" of holders for machine gun ammo hanging below the optics???

Regards,
Dustin

User avatar
Erik E
Financial supporter
Posts: 4517
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 22:26
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by Erik E » 21 Nov 2003 22:57

Hallo Dustin!

I have seen this detail for the first time on this photo. It would make perfect sense to have a machinegun mounted, as the 4,7 isn`t the best defence against infantry.

I have however never seen anything "black on white" confirming that there is a machinegun there. I have some maps where weapons are listed together with the bunker, but no MG is mentioned in any of 6 different Festungspak casemates. As far as I know there are no complete guns left in Norway, so it`s a little difficult for me to check it out.

Another detail which back up your theory is a small over the mainbarrel (on the outside) This could be the opening for MG.

If anyone here can give some information on this PLEASE post it here :)
Meanwhile I will go through everything I can to see if I have forgotten something.........

The photo below looks different from the one above, so either there were 2 versions, or thisone had "something" removed :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
LegalAssassin
Member
Posts: 353
Joined: 25 Oct 2003 17:24
Location: Kalmar, Sweden

Post by LegalAssassin » 22 Nov 2003 13:58

I looked at the site the first photo is from, they had one more from the side... the MG is grouped with the cannon to allow the position to be AP and AT, apparently. Smart, no need for a separate hole (weakness) in the wall!

The bunker is located in the Czech Republic, which is why this is probably not among your Regelbau-lists.

If I can get enough stuff, well, all pics that are out there, I could make a 3D model. Though side/top/front etc pics/sketches are easier to work from, I'd probably make it anyway. Post it all here! :)

User avatar
De Ruyter
Member
Posts: 177
Joined: 27 Jun 2003 21:08
Location: Sweden

Post by De Ruyter » 22 Nov 2003 15:06

Hi there Erik and all others!

Nice that one can be of some assistance sometimes! :D

I always feel let out because everyone knows alot more than me! Even though I only noticed the MG by chance... ha ha!

Regards,
Dustin

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 565
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 11:43
Location: Czech Republic

Post by Glynwed » 24 Nov 2003 08:58

Hi Erik E,

Nice article. For your information, there were guns with MG (heavy machine gun TK vu. 37), and without MG (some 20 pc). There were manufactured cca 200 pc of this weapon. I added link for it - however in czech.

http://www.bunkry.cz/opevneni.asp?id=17

Keep on Erik, your researches are interesting (turret PzKpfw 38(t) for example). :wink:

User avatar
Erik E
Financial supporter
Posts: 4517
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 22:26
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by Erik E » 24 Nov 2003 09:39

Hallo Glynwed!

That page looks really interesting, but I can`t understand anything :roll:

If you have very little things to do some day, I would love to see it translated! I have also found several indications of the MG being there, but I still need better drawings! 200 sounds like a really low number.....Are you sure about this? I have seen atleast 15-20 casemates on my trips, and I have maybe seen 5% of the Atlantikwall!

Thanks for the inspiring words about the turrets! I`m heading for a few in a couple of hours!

Erik

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 565
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 11:43
Location: Czech Republic

Post by Glynwed » 24 Nov 2003 13:15

Hi Erik, I cutt-off some parts of article. It´s from auto-translater so forgive errors.

FORTRESS ANTI-TANK CANNON A6 CALIBRE 47 MM
Only anti-tank weapon, which was during mobilisation in September 1938 in in the number of 222 piece install in loopholes of pillboxes heavy fortification were 4cm cannon vz. 36 (another 6 cannon be instrumental to training in garrison houses). This gun may be install in design "L1" (cannon with joint mounting with heavy machine-gun vz. 37) or "Q" (only cannon). It was very effective gun, which was capable ensure sufficient anti-tank defence of fort line and which in its time belong to near world's top.
Under code mark A6 was from autumn 1935 in Škoda Plzeò developing anti-tank cannon calibre 47 mm. It was semiautomatic armature calibre 47mm with vertical wedged cut-off. Gun-barrel long 2 040 mm had quite 20 clockwise groove. Every gun had one reserve gun-barrel storage directly in gunnery room. Maximum velocities of shooting were 35 shots per minute.

On the right from gun-barrel of cannon was in independent machine-gun carriage fixed heavy machine-gun vz. 37 (originally was using machine-gun in older design vz. 35). Shooting from machine-gun may proceed independently of firing cannon or can both guns fire simultaneously.

Full war crew of mixed gun L1 formed six men (corporal, lance corporal and four privates) - commander, gun layer, loader of cannon, machine-gunner and two feeders.

Cannon was boot to the equipment of German army below mark 4,7cm PaK 36 and found use in series of Germans fort construction all over Europe. Loopholes obtain mark 770P4. First "PAKs" find out already in the year 1939 in some objects on Westwall (Siegfried line). In May 1940 was on Westwall build 45 fortress objects equipped with cannon 4,7cm Pak 36 Mass utilisation of - cannon became when building-up Atlantic line in years 1942-44. At this time were build 493 objects equipped with loophole 770P4. On east-front wasn’t cannon use.


I have question too: "Did you have any information abouth combat use of turrets from PzKpfw 38(t)?

With best regards

Glynwed

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 565
Joined: 28 Aug 2003 11:43
Location: Czech Republic

Post by Glynwed » 26 Nov 2003 13:25

Erik E wrote:200 sounds like a really low number.....Are you sure about this? I have seen atleast 15-20 casemates on my trips, and I have maybe seen 5% of the Atlantikwall!


:idea: There were 268 arms produce till March 1939 and additional 273 pc were produce for Wehrmacht, so total number of produced arms = 541 pc. :idea:

User avatar
Erik E
Financial supporter
Posts: 4517
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 22:26
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by Erik E » 27 Nov 2003 14:47

Hallo!

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate the translation!

Did you have any information abouth combat use of turrets from PzKpfw 38(t)


I have never seen any info about them in combat, but I`m sure something could be found from the battles on Balkan, where most of these turrets were placed!

Erik

Return to “Fortifications, Artillery, & Rockets”