Spiking Arty

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 10 Jan 2004 18:54

Also things like laying open the breech and setting off a White Phosphorous grenade there would screw it up pretty good.


I don't think white phophusurus burns hot enough to score metal and regular frag grenades won't work.

Magnesium/ thermite grendes are about the only permernant way to destroy a piece of steel like a cannon. Recoil mechanisms and carriges and firing pins can be replace.

For what its worth a US Tank of today has 5 thermite grenades as part of its combat load. If you need to abandon a tank to the enemy, you part one on top of each fuel cell in the engine compartment, one on the radios inside the tank, and one on top of the breech of the main gun.(4) total.
The last grenade I believe is to be used on any classified or secret material/equipment or maybe in case of failure of one of the other grenades. This info can be found in one of the operators/technical manual for most US equipment

Dig around I am sure the policies for destroying cannons in the Canadian army are published somewhere and probably haven't changed since the war. [/quote]

Timo
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Post by Timo » 10 Jan 2004 19:32

Aufklarung wrote:Hallo Timo

Could you be so kind as to direct me to that picture of which you speak?

Thanx in advance.

regards
A :)


I don't have a scan but the photo can be found on page 297 of Pallud's "BotB Then and Now"

Regards,
Timo

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 11 Jan 2004 15:04

Thanx Timo but due to my current location, I do not have access to that book.

CP
Dig around I am sure the policies for destroying cannons in the Canadian army are published somewhere and probably haven't changed since the war.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I don't follow you WRT that portion of your post. :?

regards
A :)

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 11 Jan 2004 17:04

Aufklarung wrote:Thanx Timo but due to my current location, I do not have access to that book.

CP
Dig around I am sure the policies for destroying cannons in the Canadian army are published somewhere and probably haven't changed since the war.


I'm afraid I don't follow you WRT that portion of your post. :?

regards
A :)[/quote]

Since you have access to Modern army technical manuals , you can find what is used or the process to destroy a artillery cannon today, rather than some of us theorizing about it and talking about field expedient methods for doing so. Many things will work , but what is the "Army" way , so to speak.

My early comments were about destroying a modern day tank BY THE BOOK, there have to be some specific regulation instructions for destroying an artillery piece, which I assume would be common in general to all armies back at least to the WWII era.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 11 Jan 2004 22:05

:idea: Ahhhh, the light goes on in my head!!

Thanx for clearing that up, CP. I was having a "too many meals from the aluminium mess tins" moment, I guess. :oops:

In more modern times, the term encompassed any method that ruled the gun in-operable. Fouling the muzzle end of the barrel (rock, lumber, or a reversed round etc) and firing a round worked the best. This usually would cause the barrel to burst somewhere along it's length. Long lanyard was a must for this method!! One can see many pics of Dunkirk showing Brit 3.7in guns having had this done to them


This method was the immediate answer I got from the Arty guys here when I asked them about "spiking" guns.

Their second answer was..........
........to put a shell in the chamber but without a charge bag and just the primer. When fired the shell would not exit the muzzle but lodge part way up it.
..........."it" being the barrel. This would not destroy the gun but there was no way it could be used against you anytime soon.

So these would be considered official "Army" ways, according to our Forces.

WRT tanks; the answer you gave is almost identical to what's in our manuals except that we don't have such an item as Thermite grenades so WP is used instead. There is no mention of placing these in or on the breech tho'. Destroying the tank hull and turret by internal fire would pretty much take care of the gun too, I'm guessing.

Thanx.
A :)

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 11 Jan 2004 23:19

Thanks Auf.,

Those are the kind of permenant type , by the book, answers about destroying cannon, that I wanted to hear.

Regard
Chris

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Jan 2004 00:34

Mark V wrote:One way was to fire a round without hydraulic fluid (used propably combined with above mentioned methods), it was a way to damage the the most expensive system in any artillery piece, the carriage and recoil system....
Yes.
And to increase the damage, the last shot could also been not only fired (if done so, few shovel loads of gravel to the barrel first, or as Aufklarung posted: "rock, lumber, reversed round) without the recoil fluids: it could have been detonated at the chamber with a handgrenade (or equivalent) through the barrel.


Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2004 20:53

Aufklarung wrote:
........to put a shell in the chamber but without a charge bag and just the primer. When fired the shell would not exit the muzzle but lodge part way up it.
..........."it" being the barrel. This would not destroy the gun but there was no way it could be used against you anytime soon.
Could the barrel be "cleared" (safely) by a blank shot (only charge bag, no ammo)?

Regards, Juha :roll:

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 14 Jan 2004 01:57

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Aufklarung wrote:
........to put a shell in the chamber but without a charge bag and just the primer. When fired the shell would not exit the muzzle but lodge part way up it.
..........."it" being the barrel. This would not destroy the gun but there was no way it could be used against you anytime soon.
Could the barrel be "cleared" (safely) by a blank shot (only charge bag, no ammo)?

Regards, Juha :roll:


No, working pressure would burst the barrell past the chamber.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Jan 2004 09:20

ChristopherPerrien wrote:No, working pressure would burst the barrell past the chamber.
That´s what I thought too...but how about the use of "reduced charges"?
I mean that a new shot with just primer doesn`t perhaps move the grenade stuck in the barrel (but doesn`t harm the barrel?) and if full charge shot will burst the barrel... will something in between of them work?

Regards, Juha

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Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » 14 Jan 2004 09:59

Or how exactly were those stuck grenades removed?

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 14 Jan 2004 10:27

Juha
Now I'm no expert on these matters but I'm guessing that CP is correct in that doing as you suggest to clear the round would in fact burst the barrel or blow out the breech. There's too much room between charge and shell to move it, methinks.

Tiwaz
Without knowing "exactly", I'd say it would have to be cleared by a press or hydraulic ram after separating the barrel from the carriage etc. Drill wouldn't do for an HE or WP round!! 8O

regards
A :)

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Jan 2004 12:51

Aufklarung,

Do you know how far the primer shot "pushes" the grenade to the barrel:( it of course depends at the type/caliber of the piece) just to the riflings or deeper?

Regards,
Juha,
the stubborn infantryman

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 14 Jan 2004 13:38

Hi Juha

How's life? :D

Honestly, I do not know how far the round goes up the barrel. The Artillery guys here I questioned on this said it "only goes part-way up the barrel". The driving band on the shell, which in the chamber, is bigger than the bore, must be what causes the stoppage before exiting the muzzle end. I'm not a "mud gunner" either and am only repeating what these guys have told me in response to the original query on ways to spike a gun. Sorry, but being the "I pull the cord and the gun goes boom" type of soldier never held much interest for me. :wink:

Any Artillery types out there?

regards
A :)

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Jan 2004 20:46

Aufklarung wrote:Hi Juha

How's life? :D
Can´t complain...or ...my back is bit sore, weather is bad, car is old...

Honestly, I do not know how far the round goes up the barrel. The Artillery guys here I questioned on this said it "only goes part-way up the barrel". The driving band on the shell, which in the chamber, is bigger than the bore, must be what causes the stoppage before exiting the muzzle end. I'm not a "mud gunner" either and am only repeating what these guys have told me in response to the original query on ways to spike a gun.
During the last stages of Winter War one Finnish 305mm coastal artillery gun exeeded it´s calculated 150 round barrel life by 148 rounds (=298 rounds fired), with the cost of accuracy. The gun lost so much metal at it´s barrel that, when loaded, the last rounds went about one meter deeper at the chamber than normal.

"I pull the cord and the gun goes boom"
:lol: :lol: :lol: very nice

Regards,
Juha,
the lawn drill

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