Dora Railway gun question

[ChristopherPerrien]

OK , next we have the Americans finding Gustave : On 14 April 1945, one day before the arrival of US troops, Schwerer Gustav was destroyed to prevent its capture. On 22 April 1945, its ruins were discovered in a forest 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) north of Auerbach and about 50 kilometres (31 mi) southwest of Chemnitz.

Then it seems like the borders of East/West were moved and the Soviets took it to Meresburg.

OK now Dora:

In March 1945, Dora was transferred to Grafenwöhr and was blown up there on 19 April 1945. It was discovered by American troops some time after the discovery of Schwerer Gustav. The debris was scrapped in the 1950s.


You'll never guess something about unless you might be a German Panzertruppen or perhaps American Tanker from the Cold War about

" Gustav was destroyed to prevent its capture. On 22 April 1945, its ruins in a forest 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) north of Auerbach"

and

" Dora was transferred to Grafenwöhr"

15 kilometers north of Auerbach IS the Grafenwöhr Training Area

Both "Gustave: and "Dora" were found in the same place , I.E. the Germans put both barrels and associated
equipment at "Graf", and it was scattered about there.

Just give me the two German arty units assigned to EACH gun . Should be easy as they seem to have required an organization of 2K men per gun.or several hundred(400-700) to load and fire/operate the gun.

I can readily accept a gun firing at Sevastopol and a barrel being proofed*test fired somewhere. Which means TWO guns somewhere. Also that the gun CREW called GUSTAV , DORA. hence the confusion.

Such a huge and complex piece of machinery , IMO now after years of looking at this topic on occasion, lead me to think ,
Yes , about 2 1/2 sets of this equipment would be needed to have ONE operational gun.
Yes , multiple site and operations were started to emplace this gun, and some happened at the same time, However please
find me TWO operational guns (I>E. -both with actaul crews at the same time. Is there an instance of that?

I believe there was a gun firing at Sevastopol while another barrel was being tested by WaPruf/Krupp.(If you think this means there were 2 guns fine , but I just see 1 gun and then a barrel being tested for that same gun.
Just name give me the unit designations of the TWO arty crews assigned to the "Gustave" types guns.

Yes I am stuck on this , However I believe Hogg to be correct on this , from a soldier's/artilleryman's POV.
Gustave was unique in that in its complexity the "spares" could be built into another gun, as the need for major pieces if one broke was unique as well. If the "breech" broke on Gustave , and there was not another already made, it would be a year+ to never, in getting the gun back in operation . Same with other major pieces. The Gun crew called it Dora. You can call it Dora or Gustave, or think there were "two" guns. But I only see one gun crew calling Gustave Dora. Now , as that is true, where was the gun crew with "Gustave " ?

Basically , 2 guns with only one gun crew , is one gun, in the special case of "Gustave/Dora".
It would be sorta the same as having 2 tanks but only one crew. "Which one is going into battle?
However in the case of Gustave/Dora we have civilians name it Gustave and then the soldiers giving it a "female" name. causing some confusion along with several sets of spare parts. Only one gun was pointed at the enemy, as there was only one crew to man it. Or that is what I can tell,.

[ChristopherPerrien]

My edit is not working. I want to change one line

" But I only see one gun crew calling Gustave Dora. Now , as that is true, where was the gun crew with "Gustave " ?" to

"But I only see one gun crew calling Gustave Dora. Now , IF that is true, where is the gun crew for "Gustave " ?

[NagaSadow]

Hello!

As mentioned on the first page of this thread best book about Dora is "Eisenbahnartillerie - Rohrartillerie auf Schienen" by Gerhard Taube. He clears up many misconceptions.
The First gun was informally referred to internally as "Gustav-Gerät" (Gustav equipment) by Krupp.
The gun crew christened the first gun "Dora", supposedly a short form of "Donner und Doria" (thunderation). After that "Dora" or "Dora-Gerät" was used by everyone in reference to the gun.
The gun was employed by s,Art.Abt.(E) 672 which consisted of a staff, staff-battery and a gun battery, 500 man in total. The Abt. was activated on 8th Januar 1942. The five(!) trains (combined length 1653,9m) left Rügenwalde in mid April 1942.
The firing position and a 1:1 dummy position were built by 1500 civilian workers, 1000 men O.T. and 60 railway engineers in about four weeks. Biggest problem was a hill that had to be partially removed which is why so many workers were needed and why it took nearly a month to do so.
The gun itself was ordered to the firing position on 26th May and assembled in three days. On 3rd July Hitler ordered s.Art.Abt.(E) 672 to relocate to H.Gr. Nord. There it was fully assembled but never fired and hastly moved back to Germany in August 1942 because of the Soviet Sinyavino Offensive. It received a general overhaul and a new inner lining at Krupp before it was reassembled at Rügenwalde and demonstrated to Hitler in March 1943. After that s.Art.Abt.(E) 672 was more or less disbanded.
The second gun was namend "Schwerer Gustav 2" (Heavy Gustav 2) and had a different inner lining then "Dora". The second barrel was test fired at Hillersleben by Krupp in August 1942 and the completley assembled gun at Rügenwalde in February 1943. The activation of a second s.Art.Abt.(E) never progressed beyond the initial planning stages. Both guns were then disassembled and stored in Rügenwalde.
In May 1943 Hitler ordered to continue production of the third gun "Langer Gustav" (54cm) until the unfinished gun was damaged beyond repair during an aerial attack in 1944. In early 1944 some preparations were made to employ both finished 80cm guns against England.
No gun was employed against Stalingrad.

[biercemountain]

… a 1:1 dummy position were built…

Any idea on what this "dummy position" entailed? A railroad spur and small marshaling yard (with camo screens) perhaps?

Paul

[NagaSadow]

Hello!

Two dummy positions were planned. One 4,6km NW of the real one and the other one 5km ESE. They were supposed to include smoke generators and flash generators and possibly sound generators as well although those weren't thought of as necessary.
According to Taube only the dummy position 4,6km NW of the real "Dora" was built. It did include a fake "Dora" made from cardboard that was destroyed by a Russian air attack in June 1942.

[Andrzej Ditrich]

"Dora" made from cardboard

- wow that must have been impressive

[biercemountain]

It did include a fake "Dora" made from cardboard

Surely someone took a photo of that monster. One can hope…

And we all thought that bloke who built a 1/6 scale Dora was nuts.

Paul

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Here is such model (I belive 1/16) from Overloon Museum

[ChristopherPerrien]

Hello!

As mentioned on the first page of this thread best book about Dora is "Eisenbahnartillerie - Rohrartillerie auf Schienen" by Gerhard Taube. He clears up many misconceptions.
The First gun was informally referred to internally as "Gustav-Gerät" (Gustav equipment) by Krupp.
The gun crew christened the first gun "Dora", supposedly a short form of "Donner und Doria" (thunderation). After that "Dora" or "Dora-Gerät" was used by everyone in reference to the gun.
The gun was employed by s,Art.Abt.(E) 672 which consisted of a staff, staff-battery and a gun battery, 500 man in total. It received a general overhaul and a new inner lining at Krupp before it was reassembled at Rügenwalde and demonstrated to Hitler in March 1943. After that s.Art.Abt.(E) 672 was more or less disbanded.
The second gun was namend "Schwerer Gustav 2" (Heavy Gustav 2) and had a different inner lining then "Dora". The second barrel was test fired at Hillersleben by Krupp in August 1942 and the completley assembled gun at Rügenwalde in February 1943. The activation of a second s.Art.Abt.(E) never progressed beyond the initial planning stages. Both guns were then disassembled and stored in Rügenwalde.
In May 1943 Hitler ordered to continue production of the third gun "Langer Gustav" (54cm) until the unfinished gun was damaged beyond repair during an aerial attack in 1944. In early 1944 some preparations were made to employ both finished 80cm guns against England.
No gun was employed against Stalingrad.

Hi and thank you for the comments on the Tuabe book. They basically confirm what I was saying and Hogg's comments on the gun(s).
There was one set of operational equipment Gustave a.k.a. Dora. The other assemblies were all for testing/experimental(longer range and/or heavier barrels) and proofing purposes. in the case of Gustave/Dora its "experimental" barrels and the associated equipment(breech-recoil assemblies get counted as another gun by most. I consider this inaccurate, just as experimental models of equipment compared to actual accepted models with a service designation, are typically not counted in the number of units made for most military equipment. Only one "set" of equipment(one gun) , the Gustave/Dora "set" existed, outside of a testing environment or "paper studies/orders" and those components were integral spare parts and barrels for Gustave/Dora as well.

[EPOCH3]

Hi - I am sorry to say that I interpret the Taube text as confirmation there were two complete guns. You can build 100 tanks and only assign 50 to an operational unit - it doesn't mean that the other 50 are for spares or testing or experiments etc etc... all it means is that they weren't used. I think I have looked at enough data to conclude at least to my satisfaction that two complete guns existed.... just my vote -
kind Regards

[biercemountain]

Gustav had fired 48 rounds and worn out its original barrel, which had already fired around 250 rounds during testing and development. The gun was fitted with the spare barrel and the original was sent back to Krupp's factory in Essen for relining.

Thanks for this info. I'd always puzzled over what seemed like an insanely high wear rate on the barrel due to just 48 rounds being fired. It never occurred to me that the barrel was simply at the end of its life-cycle due to testing and development.

Paul

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Just to remind 510 469 in Rugenwalde in 1942.
source: Ebay

[biercemountain]

Years ago I saw a documentary called "Eye of the Dictator" which featured an interview with the cameraman who was sent to Sevastopol to film Dora being fired. He mentioned everyone else taking cover prior to firing while he stood in the open to get his footage. As you can guess he mentioned the weapon being incredibly loud which got me to wondering just how loud it really was. How much louder do you think it was than the 16" weapons of Battery Lindemann?

Perhaps someone can shed some light on all the physical events that contribute to the total volume of such an artillery piece being fired. Apart from the massive propelling charge I'd imagine the shell exiting the barrel creates a sonic boom as well as the sound made by the carriage as it's hit by the shock of firing.

Paul

[MLW]

To achieve a sonic boom, the projectile would have travel through the air faster than the speed of sound.

[biercemountain]

To achieve a sonic boom, the projectile would have travel through the air faster than the speed of sound.

The speed of sound is 1125.328 feet per second. Dora had a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second so the shell left the gun traveling at more than twice the speed of sound.

Paul