AA guns

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WAKEN
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AA guns

Post by WAKEN » 01 Feb 2004 15:50

I'm looking for details about the cyclic/maximum and practical rate of fire of AA guns as well as details about the number of men required to crew each weapon. Here's what I've got so far:

20mm Flak 30 - 280 rpm cyclic, 120 rpm practical
20mm Flak 38 - 450 rpm cyclic, 220 rpm practical, 6 man crew
20mm Flakvierling 38 - 1800 cyclic, 760 rpm practical
20mm MG151/20 - 700 rpm cyclic
20mm 20/65 Breda - 230 rpm cyclic, 150 rpm practical
20mm 20/77 Scotti - 240 rpm cyclic, 120 rpm practical
20mm Oerlikon - 450 rpm cyclic, 285 rpm practical
20mm Madsen - 400 rpm cyclic, 225 rpm practical
20mm twin ItK/40 VKT - 1400 rpm cyclic, 720 rpm practical
37mm 37/54 Breda - 200 rpm cyclic, 140 rpm practical
twin 37/54 Breda - no information
37mm Flak 18, 36 and 37 - 160 rpm cyclic, 90 rpm practical
37mm Flak 43 - 240 rpm cyclic, 150 rpm practical
37mm Flakzwilling 43 - 500 rpm cyclic, 330 rpm practical
40mm Bofors - 140 rpm cyclic, 120 rpm practical, 6 man crew
47mm Kanon PL vz.37, Flak 37(t) - 25 rpm maximum, 15 rpm practical
50mm Flak 41 - ? rpm maximum, 130 rpm practical
50mm Gerat 58 - 140 rpm maximum, ? rpm practical
50mm Flak 214 - ? rpm maximum, 145 rpm practical

If there's sufficient interest I'll post what I have for guns of larger calibres in another post.

Cheers,

Neil

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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 01 Feb 2004 16:16

Hello Waken

I think your suggestion is very interesting, and beeing "into Flak" i certainly will join this tread - but dont you think it really belongs to the above tread abuot "Flak emplacements and equipment"
There you will get some attention and knowledge on the subject.

best regards
Kurt
kstdk

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tom!
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Post by tom! » 04 Feb 2004 10:38

Hi


I found other data and some more aa-guns:

15 mm MG151/15 – 900 rpm cyclic
20 mm Flak 38 - 480 rpm cyclic
20 mm Gebirgsflak 38 - 480 rpm cyclic, 220 rpm practical
25 mm Flak Hotchkiss 38/39(f) - 350 rpm cyclic
30 mm Flak 103/38 - 420 rpm cyclic
30 mm Flak 303/38 - 420 rpm cyclic
37 mm Flakzwilling 43 - 300 rpm practical

The 15 mm MG151/15 and 20 mm MG151/20 were only used as Flak in a triple mount version.

Yours

tom :wink:

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Post by Tony Williams » 19 Feb 2004 08:55

A couple of points of detail: the MG 151 fired at around 700-740 rpm regardless of whether it was in 15mm or 20mm calibre, and the French 25mm had a cyclic rate of only about 250 rpm.

More generally, it is necessary to define what is meant by practical, as it can be looked at in two ways:

In magazine or clip-loaded guns, the firing rate can be reduced by the need to change magazines (although the Bofors avoids this). In belt-fed guns they can usually keep going as extra lengths of belt can be clipped on, although with some the belts need changing.

Air-cooled weapons need to stop firing after a while, to cool the barrel. Over a long period, this means that their practical RoF is well below that of water-cooled guns, although for AA use this is not so important as they usually fire in short bursts anyway. To give you an example: the .50 Browning M2HB has a cyclic RoF of around 450 rpm, but a continuous RoF of 40 rpm to stop the barrel from overheating.

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tom!
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Post by tom! » 19 Feb 2004 14:14

Hi

I´m searching for infos about japanese AA-Weapons, especially the development of those weapons.

www. and literature sources welcome.

Yours

tom :wink:

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Post by Tony Williams » 19 Feb 2004 14:27

What kind of calibres are you interested in? I have information about the automatics (up to 25mm) and a little about the larger calibres.

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tom!
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Post by tom! » 19 Feb 2004 15:02

Hi
Tony Williams wrote:What kind of calibres are you interested in? I have information about the automatics (up to 25mm) and a little about the larger calibres.


I have started an internet project about IJA and IJN for the german Sudden-Strike-community. Therefore I need everything I can get.

At the moment my only source of value is
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome.

To me the infos on this page are good but not enough because I want to make a page with development and further technical infos including further equipment and tactics of IJA- and IJN-units.
In germany you can find almost all informations about Wehrmacht-equipment including development but not really much about equipment of other axis nations and nothing about the japanese armed forces.

At the moment I´m making the site for japanese aaa.

Yours

tom :wink:

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Post by Tony Williams » 19 Feb 2004 17:01

I can't provide much more information about the guns (although I can give you similar data for IJN equipment) but you will find data on the ammunition and its performance on my website, in the 'Ammunition Data Tables'

The following extracts are from 'Rapid Fire':

"The Japanese [Army] produced the largest cartridges of all in this calibre, the 20x158 Type 94 and the 20x142 Type 98, the latter apparently superseding the earlier weapon, of which few were made. The Type 98, introduced in 1938, used a vertical 20-round box magazine. It could be fired from its travelling position, on a carriage with large, wooden wheels, but was normally supported on a flat tripod. It weighed 269kg in action. As well as the usual HE shells, the gunners were provided with AP ammunition for its secondary AT role."

and for the IJN:

"The Japanese automatic weapons were mainly of French origin; the 25mm and 13.2mm Hotchkiss. The 25mm was fitted in single (free-swinging), twin and triple mountings which weighed 785, 1,100 and 1,800 kg respectively. The cartridge was a rimless 25x163 and the rate of fire was around 220 rpm, but limited to far less than this in practice by the air-cooled barrel and the use of 15-round vertical box magazines. Maximum effective range was claimed to be between 1,500 and 3,000m. Some older Vickers 2pdr, acquired pre-war, also remained in service."

and:

"The intermediate calibres - the 25mm Hotchkiss and the 1.1" USN - were not a great success. Their mountings were generally much heavier and more complex than most of those for the simple Oerlikon but the shells lacked range and destructive power in comparison with the 37 and 40mm cannon. The 25mm mountings were criticised by the Japanese for their slow rates of elevation and training, inadequate sights, excessive vibration and limited magazine capacity."

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WAKEN
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Practical Rate of Fire

Post by WAKEN » 25 Feb 2004 00:56

Tony,

Thanks for the info. I was thinking about the practical rate of fire taking into account the need to change magazines/belts.

Cheers,

Neil

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Post by Tony Williams » 25 Feb 2004 08:41

I think that for these air-cooled weapons, it wouldn't be possible to fire more than three or four magazines before having to stop firing for some time to allow the barrels to cool. That's your greatest limitation on the practical RoF.

Tony Williams

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 25 Feb 2004 09:37

There is another report giving the rate of fire of the M.K. 103 to 480 rounds per minute.

The M.K. 103 Zwilling in the Kugelblitz was given a rate of fire of 15 rounds per second, however this may be for both guns.

Christian

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Post by Tony Williams » 25 Feb 2004 11:05

Rates of fire tend to be average figures, and will vary depending on gun age, maintenance, belt drag, ammunition etc. The figures I have for the MK 103 aircraft gun are 420 rpm firing the usual M-Geschoss, but only 360 rpm firing the high-pressure Hartkernmunition, since the pressure delayed the unlocking of the action.

Tony Williams

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 25 Feb 2004 11:19

The 480 rounds per minute is also for Minen Geschoß. The data is from a report from Rheinmetall-Borsig from february 1945.

Christian

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hauptmannn
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Post by hauptmannn » 29 Feb 2004 12:04

Which AA gun do you think is most effective overall?

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 29 Feb 2004 14:37

That depends on what you want to use it for. For high-altitude bombers, the heavy cannons (8.8cm., 10.5cm. and 12.8cm.) were most effective, because of their high effective cieling and theig possibility to fire as a group.

For low-altitude fighters and fighter-bombers, the lighter cannons (2cm., 3.7cm and 5cm.) were most effective, because of their rapid fire, and (usually) faster traverse.

Christian

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