German tapered-bore AT-Guns?

[Uninen]

Does anybody have any info about use of these? Scale of issue and effectiveness of these interests me..

Pictures would also be nice..

Saw one used in a pazer documentary series that i just watched.. (some 10 x 45 minutes of it.. ) i think it was in action in Normandy.. (looked to me as s.Pz.B. 41..)

[Tony Williams]

I think that only the 28/20mm PzB 41 version saw much service. This used a cartridge based on the French 25mm AT round. The larger 42/29mm was less used.

You can find details of the ammo on the Ammunition Data Tables on my website, and photos of the 28/20 round (and its sectioned projectile) on the Ammunition Photo Gallery.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Uninen]

Thanks..

Good info.. i had this one page already.. (which states that those were totally ineffective, which i refuse to belive..)

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http://www.lonesentry.com/german_antitank/index.html

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From there you can find pics of all of them.. well.. pics of:

The tapered-bore 28/20-mm gun, s.Pz.B. 41.
The airborne 28/20-mm antitank gun.
The tapered-bore 42/28-mm 4.2-cm Pak
The 75/55-mm tapered bore 7.5-cm Pak 41.

[Tony Williams]

A bit more info about effectiveness:

The 2.8cm gun could penetrate 66mm armour at 500m/0 degrees, or 52mm at 30 degrees. This is roughly the same as the British 2 pdr, which weighed more than three times as much (although the 20mm projectile would obviously do less damage inside the vehicle, after penetration).

The 4.2cm gun could penetrate 87mm at 500m/0 degrees, or 72mm at 30 degrees. This was mounted on the 3.7cm PaK 36 carriage, but penetration was about double the 3.7cm standard AP, and still substantially more than the tungsten-cored 3.7cm Pzgr 40.

These were effective weapons for their size, handicapped mostly by the shortage of tungsten for the ammo. It is possible that they also suffered from considerable barrel wear.

Tony Williams

[tom!]

Hi

From the Wehrmacht Data sheets:

• s Pz B 41:
  
  penetration (Pzgr. 41):
  100 m: 60 mm
  1000 m: 25 mm
  shell weight (Pzgr. 41):121 g
  muzzle vel.:about 1400 m/sec
  rpm: 10
  barrel life: 500 shots
  price: 4500 Reichsmark

• 4,2 cm Pak 41:
  
  penetration (Pzgr. 41):
  100 m: 100 mm
  1000 m: 40 mm
  shell weight (Pzgr. 41):360 g
  muzzle vel.:about 1500 m/sec
  rpm: 12
  barrel life: 1000 shots
  price: 8000 Reichsmark

• 7,5 cm Pak 41:
  
  penetration (Pzgr. 41 W):
  100 m: 65 mm
  1000 m: 67 mm
  penetration (Pzgr. 41 HK):
  100 m: 193 mm
  1000 m: 136 mm
  
  shell weight (Pzgr. 41 W):2500 g
  shell weight (Pzgr. 41 HK):2600 g
  muzzle vel.(Pzgr. 41 W): 1230 m/sec
  muzzle vel.(Pzgr. 41 HK): 1220 m/sec
  rpm: 12 - 14
  barrel life: 1000 shots
  price: 15000 Reichsmark

Yours

tom

[Uninen]

Good info guys! Thanks..

Juha

[David Lehmann]

The 25x194R shell used in the French 25 mm Puteaux Mle 37 APX and 25 mm Hotchkiss Mle 34 AT guns was taken as the basis for the taper-bore experiments conducted in 1940 by the Danish Larsen company for the French Army, utilizing also the first German trials of Gerlich.
Larsen developped a 29/20 mm AT guns that should have replaced all the French 25 mm AT guns. Different prototypes had been tested by the French army and the 29/20 mm shell was manufactured by the French company Manhurin. These studies were then followed up by the Germans to create thier different taper-bore AT guns.

Just a little of topic because not about the taper-bore guns, but the French Brandt company led also some interesting researches/development in 1938/1940. The work aimed to increase the initial velocity of the shells (without increasing of the chamber pressure) and also more generally to increase the AT power of the shells. The French company developped a serie of sub-calibrated shells for the 25, 37, 75, 155 and 203mm calibers (the two last ones for the French navy). AFAIK, the other nations did not developp similar or equivalent systems before 1941/1942. The most outstanding realization of this serie is probably the 75/57mm shell with a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s and a penetration of 90 mm armor at 1000m at an impact angle of 35° ... The 75mm Mle 1897 guns could have engaged and destroyed German Panzer IVs at 2500m with it ! But with the standard 75mm AP shells the panzers were generally engaged/destroyed at 800 m in 1940 with the 75mm Mle 97/33.

Beside the sub-calibrated shells, Brandt also developped a 75mm HEAT shell at this time, using the patent of the Swiss Mohaupt. The tests took place in Bourges in 1940 and the results were that impressive that they were put in the secret immediately in order to avoid German capture.
The French war ministry allowed Brandt to give the info to the USA and the United Kingdom. These sub-calibrated shells were used in the UK as basis to developp the APDS shells (armoured piercing discarted sabot) issued from 1942/1943. The first AT guns using them were the 6 Pdr and 17 Pdr AT guns.

At the end of 1939 Brandt developped also a 50mm HEAT rifle grenade. It had a range of about 100m and an armor penetration of 40mm. It entered in production during May 1940 and was successfully tested at the Satory test range on 10th June 1940 but they could not be issued to the combat units before the armistice.
The patents were sent to the USA in June 1940 and were used as basis to developp the M9 AT rifle grenade and the HEAT rocket of the Bazookas.
The Brandt HEAT rifle grenade was also secretely produced in France at 300,000 pieces in the free area and issued to Vichy forces. Several partisans groups used them in 1944.


David

[Bob_Mackenzie]

PaK-41 pics follow this link

http://www.geipelnet.com/war_albums/otto/ow_011.html

Cheers

Bob

[Uninen]

http://www.marcopoloimport.com/
(picture)

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SdKfz 250/11 leichte Schützenpanzerwagen (schwere Panzerbüchse 41), Gerält 882 with 2.8cm sPzB41 taper bore AT-Gun.

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"SdKfz 250/11 leichte Schützenpanzerwagen (schwere Panzerbüchse 41), Gerält 882: Had a 2.8cm sPzB41 taper bore (168 rounds) and a 7.92 mm MG34 or MG42 with 1,100 rounds installed. It was issued to platoon leaders. The field carriage was also carried and the main gun could be dismounted."

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http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/sdKfz250.html
(info)

[Roger Griffiths]

7,5/5,5cm Pak 41 was still in use at Kurk, but probably just using up remaining ammo. Apparently it was THE killer AT gun.

Roger

[jopaerya]

Hello

The first photo that I am sure of that this as the 7.5 cm PaK 41 , but the barrel of the second
gun looks so short that why I am not sure of that this is the gun . But it has the looks

Photo's = Ebay

Regards Jos

[Bob_Mackenzie]

It looks like a PaK-41 to me. I suspect the barrel is at full recoil, perhaps driven back by the hit on the barrel?

[jopaerya]

Thanks Bob

Sounds very logical .

Regards Jos

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I found this small and blurry image of a 7.5cm Pak 41 gun:

Image from Ebay
Sturm78

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

A rare (although small) image of a 7.5cm Pak 41 gun

Image from Ebay
Sturm78