4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

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VRIL7
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by VRIL7 » 07 May 2021 19:51

nuyt wrote:
07 May 2021 18:00
- Kanon van 5 Kazemat No 1 (5cm L50 HIH Siderius, 8 pieces made in the early 1930s, these were mobile weapons used in the Afsluitdijk fortresses and at least one in Roermond);
So, only 9 mobile guns were produced !? :o
Sorry to be out of topic.
Regards
Andriy

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 07 May 2021 22:52

I wrote 8. Why do you say 9?

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by svdb10 » 08 May 2021 12:49

nuyt wrote:
07 May 2021 16:48
Interesting! Were these the cupola's ordered from Cockerill in BE believe?
- 80 cupola's (1001-1080) were ordered at "De Muinck Keizer"(Utrecht, NL)
- 70 cupola's (1101-1170) were ordered at "S.A. Cockerill" (Liège, BE)
- 10 cupola's (1191-1200) were ordered at "Gustave Boël" (La Louvière, BE)

So the two surviving examples (1001 & 1002) were both produced by De Muinck Keizer.

Source: J.R. Verbeek - De Gietstalen PAK-Kazemat


However, to make matters even more complicated, there was also a separate design for a cupola for the 5cm L50 gun no2. At least 7 of these cupola's were ordered at Cockerill (no 431-437) and were meant for emplacement on various weak spots in the Dutch Waterline (NHW)

Source: J.R. Verbeek - Het kanon van 5 cm Kazemat No 2.

nuyt wrote:
07 May 2021 18:00
- Kanon van 5 Kazemat No 1 (5cm L50 HIH Siderius, 8 pieces made in the early 1930s, these were mobile weapons used in the Afsluitdijk fortresses and at least one in Roermond);
I wouldn't call them 'mobile'; normally they were employed on a fixed 'casemate' carriage. However, each gun gun was also provided with a mobile carriage.

As you wrote, 8 guns were ordered:
- Den Oever: Casemate III (1 gun) and casemate IV (2 guns)
- Kornwerderzand: Casemate II (1 gun), Casemate VI (2 guns) + 1 gun in an open emplacement
So 3 guns at Den Oever and 4 at Kornwerderzand. I'd always assumed the eight gun to be a spare for Den Oever, but you write Roermond? What was it doing there? I know that two guns of 5cm L50 no1 from Den Oever were temporararily (1936-37) emplaced in the Rivercasemates 'Zutphen Zuid' and 'Deventer Noord''.

Source: J.R. Verbeek - Het kanon van 5 cm Kazemat No 1.

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 08 May 2021 16:20

Hi Sander,

Excellent post.
Yes, mobile meant in the case of the Kanon van 5 Kazemat No1 that they could be moved from one kazemat to the next :)

About Roermond: Apologies, I do not have the source, because my books and archives are in storage (moving house). I was actually quoting myself from the Overvalwagen Forum: "the Siderius 5cm L50 No1, production no 3 was removed from a bunker near Roermond in 1937, to be replaced by a brand new 5cm L50 no2." Does that give you a clue?

Furthermore I had 3 each at K'zand and Den Oever?

Great weekend,
Nuyt

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 08 May 2021 16:28

The number 8 of these pieces may have been at Den helder as a shooting practice:
"Bij Den Helder was een oefenkazemat voor een 5 cm No.1 Kazemat kanon (in gebruik op Den Oever en Kornwerderzand)."
From: http://www.forten.info/index.htm?http:/ ... ijst-1.htm

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 08 May 2021 16:39

svdb10 wrote:
08 May 2021 12:49
However, to make matters even more complicated, there was also a separate design for a cupola for the 5cm L50 gun no2. At least 7 of these cupola's were ordered at Cockerill (no 431-437) and were meant for emplacement on various weak spots in the Dutch Waterline (NHW)
These could have been for a newly ordered batch of 15 Kanons van 5 Kazemat No2. The order was made prior to May 1940, but there is no indication that these weapons were produced before or during the German occupation. In fact I have never seen any records of post May 40 use of the AI Hembrug Kazemat kanons No2. They were mentioned in the Denkschrift on Dutch fortifications, but identified there as Hembrug-Bofors (sic).

Either they were scrapped completely or sent somewhere else where they were lost.

Does anybody have a clue what happened to them?

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 08 May 2021 19:58

Some drawings of the Pagkoepel and how the 4.7 was to mount in the turret.
JK
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 08 May 2021 20:00

And some more
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 08 May 2021 20:01

And of the gun
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 08 May 2021 20:03

The quality is not so good but this was 2006 and the National Archives just started with theire project to allow photographing.
And nothing was there for us except a table and a light.
JK

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by Knouterer » 08 May 2021 20:41

What was the exact calibre of the 5 cm gun, considering that the Dutch rounded off to whole centimetres, for example, the "6 veld" was actually 57 mm, and the "7 veld" 75 mm?
If it was 47 mm, was the ammunition interchangeable with that of any other existing weapon?
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 08 May 2021 21:48

Good question.

I believe the Böhler calibre was 47x228R and the Kanon van 5 kazemat no 1 and no 2 to be 50x338R. There were also separate ammo production lines at AI Hembrug.

So no interchangeability...

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 08 May 2021 21:51

JKernwerk wrote:
08 May 2021 20:03
The quality is not so good but this was 2006 and the National Archives just started with theire project to allow photographing.
And nothing was there for us except a table and a light.
JK
Thanks JK!

I remember the NA back then, with a highly suspicious, overzealous and irritating guard checking everyone thoroughly :D

JKernwerk
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 08 May 2021 22:39

nuyt wrote:
08 May 2021 21:51
JKernwerk wrote:
08 May 2021 20:03
The quality is not so good but this was 2006 and the National Archives just started with theire project to allow photographing.
And nothing was there for us except a table and a light.
JK
Thanks JK!

I remember the NA back then, with a highly suspicious, overzealous and irritating guard checking everyone thoroughly :D
When he knew you he was pretty OK.
Most of them are by the way, sometimes they seem to be normal people...
JK

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 09 May 2021 09:45

Of course :)

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